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Author Topic:   "Is 'genetic determinism' empirically valid, and is it essential to the "Modern Synth
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 44 of 49 (451486)
01-27-2008 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Elmer
01-02-2008 2:04 AM


Re: Trying to get some coherency
I just want to comment I have been very impressed by your arguments. I think another way to illustrate the fact QM dispels the notions of reality being mechanically determined is rather than discussing indeterminancy, pointing out the operations of quantum mechanics occur outside space and time as shown with the phenoma of entanglement. 2 particles that are entangled act as one system regardless of distance and time. They defy local realism as well as causality.
Their connection as one system and the operations of that occur outside space and time, as quantum physicists such as Zeilinger attest to. In fact, most assert particles also exist outside space and time with no definite location in the universe until "observation" which in itself is hotly debated.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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 Message 42 by Elmer, posted 01-02-2008 2:04 AM Elmer has replied

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 Message 45 by Elmer, posted 01-27-2008 11:47 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 46 of 49 (451539)
01-28-2008 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Elmer
01-27-2008 11:47 PM


Re: Trying to get some coherency
But this thread was begun on the understanding that it the "Aspect" experiments were irrefutable proof that space and time, and thus matter itself, were not what Materialism, and its determinism, had always held them to be.
You are exactly correct. My comment is just another way to illustrate that. Here's a quote from an interview with Zeilinger.
Take a particle with an uncertain location and an uncertain velocity. When you look at it through a microscope and locate it, the particle gives you an answer: "Here I am." That means, the location becomes reality at that moment. Beforehand, the particle had no location at all.
The effect has so far been proved across a distance of a hundred kilometres. The amazing thing is that there can be no exchange of information between the two particles. They react absolutely in synch, although they could could never know anything of each other's existence. You can think of it as two dice far away from each other that always land on the same number, without there being any kind of mechanism which connects them. .........The spooky effect at a distance is a process outside time and space
Anton Zeilinger, Mathias Plüss, Regina Hügli: Spooky action and beyond (16/02/2006) - signandsight
What QM shows is that the basic operation for the formation and appearance of matter as a physical reality is, in fact, an immaterial process outside space and time whereby a particle's existence is immaterial, existing as a design or information, which becomes physical as a secondary, derived property. The process is not mechanistic because it's the appearance of an immaterial state into a physical state. Entanglement further illustrates this reality, that quantum operations are immaterial outside space and time, by the fact entangled particles behave as one system so that what happens to one when it "becomes" physical immediately determines what happens to another regardless of distance and imo and there are papers indicating this, regardless of time.

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 Message 45 by Elmer, posted 01-27-2008 11:47 PM Elmer has replied

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