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Member (Idle past 2521 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Archaeopteryx and Dino-Bird Evolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Archaeopteryx is a bird only because scientists have decided that they will make the definition of Aves broad enough to include Archaeopteryx. The boundaries of the classifications are artificial, and in this case they are arbitrarily placed so as to include Archaeopteryx. "Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Oops. I just wiped out your flag to metatron.
Try putting a message in the topic promotion thread asking a moderator to put a note into metatron's post.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Heh. I have seen that classification scheme, too, so perhaps I shouldn't have been so quick with my fancy scientific terminology.
This does sort of support our points, though (notice me making lemonade?): if one arbitrarily only considers Aves to be birds, then Archaeopteryx is then not a bird. If, on the other hand, all the members of Avilae have the features that we naturally want to associate with birds, then Archaeopteryx can be considered a bird. What is and is not a bird is rather arbitrary (like most definitions), and unfortunately for Springer's point, how one classifies Archaeopteryx is less important than the fact that it's classification brings up these issues, just as we would expect from a bird/theropod transitional. (By the way, I think it is a matter of contention among those who like to be involved in contentions whether Aves should be the crown group of modern birds or the crown group of modern birds and Archie. Since I'm not a biologist or palaeontologist, I don't have a dog in that race.) "Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: I was writing from the stand point of traditional taxonomy, which recognizes paraphyletic groupings. Not all biologists, or even all systemists, have yet adopted an entirely phylogenic approach to classification, so I will switch from one to the other as it is convenient for me. Bad habit on my part: it does open the possibility of equivocation. As far as whether mammals are descended from reptiles (or are reptiles or whatever) -- as I mentioned, I don't like that. I've read that the last common ancestor of modern reptiles and mammals was early enough that it still had many amphibian characteristics. I would assume, then, that as the line that led to reptiles further evolved their distinctive reptilian features, the synapsids would have evolved in a different direction (unless there was some sort of convergent evolution). Of course, on can define (and people did and probably still do) define reptile in such a way to include synapsids and therapsids. Me, I prefer to think of reptiles and mammals as closely related but independent lineages of the early tetrapod line. But, not being a biologist, there's no reason for anyone else to accept my musings. At any rate, even if one does accept that synapsids were reptiles, then whether mammals are reptiles would depend on whether reptile has a place in a completely phylogenic classification -- I don't think it does, I think that Tetrapoda (which, like Aves, has caused some contention as to what it should include) is used instead. I have the impression that reptile is more a taxon in the older scheme that considers it a paraphyletic group. But I could be wrong here, or it could easily change as the schemes change. "Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Actually, there are hundreds, even thousands, of known intermediaries. Kathleen Hunt has written a pretty good description of a few of the important ones. And her essay is now out of date -- it doesn't list tiktallik for example. -
quote: Huh? What are these "megalithic-sized" animals, and why couldn't Archaeopteryx have "spawned" them? -
quote: Why couldn't these Avian features have developed from the earlier reptilian features? -
quote: It didn't happen in one fell swoop. It happened gradually, over a long period of time. -
quote: That is an interesting question; what were the environmental pressures which led the the evolution of these particular features? People are still working on this. However, we do have evidence that it did happen, and this question doesn't invalidate the evidence. -
quote: Probably the early wings were not stump-like appendages. Why do you think they were? -
quote: Actually, it is. It has more dinosaurian characteristics than bird characteristics. This essay describes some of these. Why do you think that Archaeopteryx was just a "perching bird"? "Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure." -- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Hello, nemesis.
quote: And what, exactly, is the problem with these "large changes"? -
quote: There is plenty of evidence that life in general has evolved from a very few, single celled forms over three and a half billion years. There is a lot of evidence that birds, mammals, and reptiles all share a common ancestor. Further, the evidence indicates that birds evolved from theropod dinosaurs. I am afraid there is a lack of evidence only because you won't look at it. "Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure." -- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Unlike certain religious dogmas that I can think of, which are not open to revision no matter how contrary the evidence is, or how illogical they become. "Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure." -- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Actually, it is observed in the hierarchical classification of species, the confirmation of the standard classification in molecular studies, in the existence of many transitional species in the fossil record, in the existence of vestigial organs, in the existence of atavisms and retroviral insertions, and on and on. As I have stated before, there is strong evidence for common descent. That you refuse to acknowledge the evidence is not going to make it go away. "Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure." -- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Yes, "nemesis_juggernaught" is turning out to be not much of a nemesis, and certainly no juggernaught! "Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure." -- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Actually, all Darwin required was that (1) physical characteristics are inherited, (2) that new characteristics can arise, and (3) that some new characteristics will give to the individuals that possess them an advantage in surviving and leaving behind offspring. All of these things have been observed. The exact mechanisms for the inheritence are unimportant. This is getting far from the topic of archaeopteryx; maybe I will start a new thread concerning evolution in general and invite you to participate. -
quote: The human appendix serves no known function. At any rate it is not necessary that there be no function, just that the organ no longer serves its original function. (Jaws, by the way, are vestigial gills.) This, too, is getting far off the topic of archaeopteryx. You are welcome to start a new thread on vestigial organs if you wish. -
quote: This is off the topic of archaeopteryx, as well as irrelevant to what I said in my previous post. "Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure." -- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Yo, nemesis,
you state:
quote: I replied to it in a subsequent post, but it would be off topic to continue in that vein. So I invite you to new thread to discuss the generalities of the theory of evolution. "Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure." -- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
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