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Author Topic:   Archaeopteryx and Dino-Bird Evolution
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 151 of 200 (347649)
09-08-2006 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by arachnophilia
09-08-2006 2:43 AM


Re: Archaeopteryx- most likely fraud, if not, still not transitional
quote:
welcome back. i thought'd you'd left.

Oh, it's normal for me. I go to forums and leave depending on how busy I am and what mood I'm in. Right now I'm in a mood for a nice evolution debate, so I came here in hopes of getting it! Hi!

quote:
yeah? name some. or rather, name some that have fully formed digits that make an actual hand, and a full set of teeth, in their adult life.

You're coming to me for information? Wow.

Hey, did you know that it is proposed to make a whole sub class of fossil birds called Odontornithes- birds with teeth? Yep. One group is Ichthyornidae. Check out this site for more info on this example, it is an adult, and it is a bird, and it has teeth: http://www.oceansofkansas.com/marsh73.html

Hey, and as for birds with claws on their wings, we have Hoatzin, and Emus, and probably more.

quote:
sure we do. people just make a lot of fuss about archaeopteryx as if it's the only dinosaur with feathers. ask any competent paleontologist, and they'll tell the odds are that every theropod dinosaur had feathers. certainly all the ones we've found with skin impressions do.

Like I said above, there are creatures with characteristics from several groups of animals, but that doesn't make them transitional. We don't see any evolving "transitionals", but we see them complete, as Creationists would expect.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by arachnophilia, posted 09-08-2006 2:43 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Belfry, posted 09-08-2006 10:04 PM Someone who cares has responded
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1708
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 152 of 200 (347650)
09-08-2006 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Someone who cares
09-08-2006 9:31 PM


The platypus is not a bird
like the platypus is a bird that feeds like a mammal,

No the platypus is a mammal, a weird one, but a mammal.
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Monotremata
Family: Ornithorhynchidae
Genus: Ornithorhynchus
Species: anatinus

Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.


Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 9:31 PM Someone who cares has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 10:28 PM DrJones* has responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 153 of 200 (347652)
09-08-2006 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by arachnophilia
09-08-2006 2:50 AM


Re: Archaeopteryx- most likely fraud, if not, still not transitional
quote:
do you have a lake by your house? perhaps a beach. go down and sit by the water for a while. what kinds of animals do you see?

Um, you must be lucky to live by a beach (that's what I am guessing from your post), but many of us don't, at least I don't. Nearest one is like 45 min. drive from here, so I'm not going to go out there right now.

I can remember seeing seagulls, but no dino/birds flying around. :)

But point is, dead birds float if they land in a lake.

And, not all fossilized creatures lived near lagoons, how do you explain their fossilization? I say a big flood did it.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by arachnophilia, posted 09-08-2006 2:50 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
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Belfry
Member (Idle past 2945 days)
Posts: 177
From: Ocala, FL
Joined: 11-05-2005


Message 154 of 200 (347655)
09-08-2006 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Someone who cares
09-08-2006 9:50 PM


Re: Archaeopteryx- most likely fraud, if not, still not transitional
Hey, did you know that it is proposed to make a whole sub class of fossil birds called Odontornithes- birds with teeth? Yep. One group is Ichthyornidae. Check out this site for more info on this example, it is an adult, and it is a bird, and it has teeth: http://www.oceansofkansas.com/marsh73.html

What you have linked to there is another example of transitional fossils. As that website says:
quote:
The fortunate discovery of these interesting fossils is an important gain to paleontology, and does much to break down the old distinctions between Birds and Reptiles, which the Archæopteryx has so materially diminished.

Do you know of any modern birds that have true teeth?

SWC writes:

We don't see any evolving "transitionals", but we see them complete, as Creationists would expect.


If you mean that there will be no non-functional "hopeful monster" transitionals, that's what evolutionary theory would predict, too. The idea that a transitional organism would be "incomplete" is a creationist strawman that is specifically NOT predicted by evolutionary theory.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 9:50 PM Someone who cares has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 10:41 PM Belfry has responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 155 of 200 (347656)
09-08-2006 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Coragyps
09-08-2006 9:30 AM


Re: Archaeopteryx- most likely fraud, if not, still not transitional
quote:
Yes, I did. Yesterday the Word of the Day was taphonomy: today it's Solnhofen. You will get behind if you don't start looking them up pretty quick. Google is your friend.

Taphonomy happens after a creature's remains are buried, if I'm not mistaken. But what I'm saying is that dust and wind aren't enough to cover up remains before bacteria eat them up and other creatures smash them, etc. I believe a big flood covered up MANY animals, fossils of which we find today. But this is getting a bit off topic.

As for the other word, you're joking, right?


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Coragyps, posted 09-08-2006 9:30 AM Coragyps has responded

Replies to this message:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 156 of 200 (347658)
09-08-2006 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by subbie
09-08-2006 4:57 PM


Re: Archaeopteryx- most likely fraud, if not, still not transitional
There are no transitional fossils with partially evolving bones or something. I have yet to see a scale/feather transitional fossil... All I see is complete creatures, just like I would expect since God Created them. Isn't it a bit odd that in all our fossil finds we find not ONE transitional fossil that in undebateable? You would expect to find at least a few hundred, but can't even produce one that is undebateable...


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by subbie, posted 09-08-2006 4:57 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 157 of 200 (347661)
09-08-2006 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Modulous
09-08-2006 5:50 PM


Re: Taphonomy, lagerstatte
How do you explain petrified trees found upright in the layers, protruding through "many different time periods", or a whale doing this? Doesn't a global flood and Creation better describe this?

And I'm going to quote here, "Fossils of animals, for example, are formed when animals are buried quickly and under tremendous pressure so that their bones or imprint are preserved in rock. If living things are not buried quickly and under enormous pressure, they will not be fossilized. Most of the many millions of fossils in the world are found in rock which has been affected by water, and, therefore, the fossils of these animals were formed as a result of the animals being buried suddenly and quickly under tremendous water pressure." (Ranganathan, B.G. Origins?, Carlisle, PA: The Banner of Truth Trust, 1988, p.27)


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Modulous, posted 09-08-2006 5:50 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 158 of 200 (347662)
09-08-2006 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by subbie
09-08-2006 9:18 PM


Re: Right!
quote:
If you are insisting that reptilian fossils with feathers must be frauds, does that mean that you concede that such fossils, if genuine, would be transitional fossils that support evolution?

No, I explained in my above messages why creatures with features of several animal groups do not indicate transition.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by subbie, posted 09-08-2006 9:18 PM subbie has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 159 of 200 (347663)
09-08-2006 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Someone who cares
09-08-2006 10:12 PM


Re: Archaeopteryx- most likely fraud, if not, still not transitional
Isn't it a bit odd that in all our fossil finds we find not ONE transitional fossil that in undebateable? You would expect to find at least a few hundred, but can't even produce one that is undebateable...

Considering the tactics that creos use in debating, (moving the goalposts, strawman, refusal to define terms) it would be remarkable if there were an "undebateable" transitional. This is particularly so since creos insist that a transistional fossil must exhibit features that are impossible.

For example, your requirement that a fossil have "scale/feather" features is exactly the sort of fictitious gap creating dodge that I described in my message 143 above.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 10:12 PM Someone who cares has not yet responded

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 3732 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 160 of 200 (347664)
09-08-2006 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Someone who cares
09-08-2006 9:31 PM


Re: the great Archaeopteryx hoax
Please understand, there are certain creatures with features of several groups of animals, like the platypus is a bird that feeds like a mammal, it has bird and mammal characteristics, that doesn't make it transitional.

You didn't really just claim that platypus are birds, did you?

abe: I see Dr. Jones beat me to this one. Hey, at least it shows people are reading your posts...

Edited by Quetzal, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 9:31 PM Someone who cares has not yet responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 161 of 200 (347665)
09-08-2006 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Belfry
09-08-2006 9:44 PM


Re: the great Archaeopteryx hoax
quote:
Such as?
And I mean teeth with proper enamel, like Hesperornis and Archeopteryx?

Already replied in above posts. There are fossilized birds with teeth. Please check above posts, I do not want to repeat myself over and over.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Belfry, posted 09-08-2006 9:44 PM Belfry has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Belfry, posted 09-08-2006 10:32 PM Someone who cares has responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 162 of 200 (347667)
09-08-2006 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by DrJones*
09-08-2006 9:54 PM


Re: The platypus is not a bird
quote:
Such as?
And I mean teeth with proper enamel, like Hesperornis and Archeopteryx?

Maybe it's classified as a mammal. But it's not certain whether the platypus is a bird or a mammal or a reptile, because it has features of all. It's debateable. But that's getting off subject here...


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by DrJones*, posted 09-08-2006 9:54 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
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Belfry
Member (Idle past 2945 days)
Posts: 177
From: Ocala, FL
Joined: 11-05-2005


Message 163 of 200 (347669)
09-08-2006 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Someone who cares
09-08-2006 10:24 PM


Re: the great Archaeopteryx hoax
SWC writes:

Already replied in above posts. There are fossilized birds with teeth. Please check above posts, I do not want to repeat myself over and over.


Please check below post (edit: by which I mean Message 154), I've replied to your replies. You're running behind. It's okay to skip ahead in situations like that.

Edited by Belfry, : No reason given.

Edited by Belfry, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 10:24 PM Someone who cares has responded

Replies to this message:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 164 of 200 (347673)
09-08-2006 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Belfry
09-08-2006 10:04 PM


Re: Archaeopteryx- most likely fraud, if not, still not transitional
quote:
What you have linked to there is another example of transitional fossils. As that website says:

Whether or not it's transitional is debateable, but point is that there are fossilized birds with teeth. This doesn't automatically make them transitional, you won't say the platypus is transitional because it has characteristics of reptiles, mammals and birds, would you?

quote:
Do you know of any modern birds that have true teeth?

Not yet. Did a search, only thing I found was a mutant chicken with teeth like an alligator, but that's a mutant...and it never hatched...

quote:
If you mean that there will be no non-functional "hopeful monster" transitionals, that's what evolutionary theory would predict, too. The idea that a transitional organism would be "incomplete" is a creationist strawman that is specifically NOT predicted by evolutionary theory.

But if you examine the fossil finds, you will see all animals and plants complete, with no evolving parts, like scale/feathers.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Belfry, posted 09-08-2006 10:04 PM Belfry has responded

Replies to this message:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1708
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 165 of 200 (347674)
09-08-2006 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Someone who cares
09-08-2006 10:28 PM


Re: The platypus is not a bird
But it's not certain whether the platypus is a bird or a mammal or a reptile, because it has features of all

No its a mammal.
1. War blooded
2. Fur
3. Tribosphenic molars
4. Ear bones incorporated into the skull
5. Lactation

It's a weird mammal no doubt, but it is a mammal.


Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 10:28 PM Someone who cares has not yet responded

  
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