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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Actually it's God who suggests that in Genesis 3:22.
And the Lord God said, The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil...
(NIV) Phat, you may think it's arrogant of jar to suggest that you hadn't read the Bible, but isn't it arrogant for you to make this mistake again after I've pointed it out and cited the verses ?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Not so much arrogant as careless. I have read the story before, however. I guess I'm not paying full attention...my posts are part of my multitasking early morning regimen.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Isn't it too late to educate them after they're already in Heaven or Hell?
You may need an eternity to educate them.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Not so much arrogant as careless. How is my and many other people pointing out that the story simply does not say what Biblical Christians claim it says careless? The thread is "The Tension of Faith". You can believe that there is a God. That is an act of Faith. If you claim there is a God rather than simply that you believe there is a God you move from a matter of Faith into an area of evidence and conclusion. If you make a claim about what is in a story then that must actually be in the story. Much of what is referred to in this thread as causing tension seems to be a desire to find evidence to support a belief. That is a futile and self defeating exercise. You don't want Jason to abandon Medea for another woman or for Medea to kill her own children or for Medea to not kill other people and for them all to go to the sea shore and have a party. But that is NOT how the story goes. You want Oedipus to be a nice boy who loves his mom and dad. But that is NOT how the story goes. You want God to be a jolly fellow that is always on your side and that will always protect you. But that is NOT how the story goes. One of the great forces that drives people away from Christianity is Calvinist Biblical Inerrancy. When you adopt the position that "Scripture in the original manuscripts does not affirm anything that is contrary to fact" you create an unavoidable tension because there are no original manuscripts and no one knows what might be in any original manuscripts and the Scripture that we do have does contain much that is contrary to fact. Reality is; even if people wish otherwise.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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How is my and many other people pointing out that the story simply does not say what Biblical Christians claim it says careless? I think Phat was calling himself careless. Maybe that is an explanation for some of the more silly things Phat posts. This part of his morning routine is simply not important enough to get right. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: I was referring to me. It was suggested that I was arrogant. I'm the careless one because I don't read carefully before commenting. How is my and many other people pointing out that the story simply does not say what Biblical Christians claim it says careless? I am going through some tough mental times right now....I'll share the struggle some day.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith writes: What about those you don't care about? It's SO true, I don't WANT anybody to go to Hell, but if I believe God has decreed it I can't argue with God, and all I can do is pray that God will save those I care about.My beliefs are actually an evolving thing. I don't necessarily believe what my church believes and am unafraid to question and philosophize over what I have been taught, what others believe, and what i myself choose to believe. Here is a quick summary, for the purpose of this discussion. My beliefs may change in a year...but they have remained roughly the same since I was saved in 1993. I BELIEVE: This does not mean that I believe all other religions or atheists are going to Hell. Hell (if Hell exists) was never created for humans. Hell was created for the fallen angels. Humans would only end up in Hell by following a false god...be it a demon or a psychotic stronghold within their own personality. God does not send anyone to Hell. We are responsible. Some argue that God is evil for even allowing such a concept to exist. Consider, for a moment how fair or unfair this really is. If you had a family Bar-B-Que would you allow just anyone and everyone to show up? No...we have certain in groups and out groups. Hell is for people who refuse to get to know Gods human character even after having been shown proof that it (He) is real. I believe that each of us will be judged individually. We are all witnesses. I am also beginning to agree with jar that nobody starts out damned. So what about atheists? Lets take tangle, as an example. He thinks it is all made up. How would he be hypothetically judged? Well in my opinion, he will be judged as to how he conducts his life in communion with others. He may appear to say no to Jesus on the surface, but his actions throughout his life may well be pleasing to the father. Lets go further...how about the Vegas shooter? Comments, Faith? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Faith writes: It's SO true, I don't WANT anybody to go to Hell, but if I believe God has decreed it I can't argue with God, and all I can do is pray that God will save those I care about. My beliefs are actually an evolving thing. I don't necessarily believe what my church believes and am unafraid to question and philosophize over what I have been taught, what others believe, and what i myself choose to believe. Here is a quick summary, for the purpose of this discussion. My beliefs may change in a year...but they have remained roughly the same since I was saved in 1993. But what is the basis of your beliefs? Why do you believe what you believe? What is it that changes that makes you change your beliefs? If your beliefs are based on the Bible I can see changing your views as you understand more of what the Bible means, but if the source of your beliefs is outside the Bible or contradicts the Bible I don't see how you could possibly have any confidence in any of it.
I BELIEVE: GOD is probably not quite like any of us imagine or read of Him to be. What does this mean? If our understanding of God's character is based on the Bible we may nave an inadequate understanding just beause we don't fully understand the Bible's portrait of God, of course, but again,l if we4 are imagining God based on any other source I don't see how anyone could have any confidence in their idea of God's character. The Bible is our only reliable source of knowledge about God. We can get it wrong nevertheless, but we are SURE to get it wrong if the Bible isn't our authority.
Jesus, however, is Gods character in human form. Jesus is exactly the way that the Gospels portray Him as. Thus, when dealing with GOD, I believe that humans need to deal with Jesus. Well, I'd agree that Jesus IS the very image of God so that taking Him as our model for God's character is quite right, but Jesus is the God of the Old Testament so we'd be wrong to make too strong a distinction between the OT and the NT portraits of God. The OT shows us God as the judge of the world and the NT gives us Jesus as our Savior from that judgment. Jhn 3:17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. People conclude wrongly that Jesus is more compassionate than the God of the Old Testament, when the fact is that He was sent to save us by God the Father, it's a matter of His purpose, not a difference in character. Consider the passage from Isaiah that Jesus quoted in the synagogue (Luke 4:18-19) to define His mission: Isa 61:1-3: The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. Jesus read that passage in the synagogue only through the line "the acceptable year of the LORD" leaving out the following phrase "...and the day of vengeance of our God." He came to save, to comfort, to set free, not to bring God's judgment. But when He comes again it WILL be for that purpose. I'll have to look up the passages later, I've got to get this written for now. The point is that Jesus IS the God of the Old Testament, God the Son of course, the Second Person of the Triune God, He is not different, He has the same compassion and that's what He came to bestow on us in His first coming. But when He comes again it will be for vengeance. All just to say that yes, Jesus is the image of God but don't forget that we see Him now only in His role as Savior and not as Judge, though He will come as that Judge in the end.
This does not mean that I believe all other religions or atheists are going to Hell. Hell was never created for humans. Hell was created for the fallen angels. Humans would only end up in Hell by following a false god...be it a demon, another human, or their own ego. God does not send anyone to Hell, in other words. We send ourselves. We are responsible. Yes but all other religions and atheists are following a false god so how could they NOT go to Hell? What do you base your idea on that they won't?
Prayer is communion and communication with GOD (Through Jesus) yet is inner meditation/communication with our higher self. The idea of the "higher Self" is a Hindu concept, it has nothing to do with the God of the Bible; what leads you to equate them?
This does not mean that we are our own gods...it means that anyone who accepts Jesus is communicating with the blessed communion of Christ in us...while the others are communicating with an inner plethora of wisdom,philosophy and belief gleaned from the information and cultural chatter they have learned. Not following this, doesn't make any sense to me. When we pray we pray to God in heaven, it can even be spiritually dangerous to pray to some idea of God within us.
God does not pick and choose who makes it and who does not. The Bible says He does.
Everyone will have an opportunity at some point...be it in life or shortly after death...to meet Jesus and decide whether or not to accept Him. There's certainly no hint of such a thing in the Bible, so you must have some other authority for this idea. What is that authority? Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith writes: The basis of my beliefs is my inner relationship with the Holy Spirit. I am not easily swayed by what other people say, but I DO consider it. The reason is that just as God worked through a Donkey(2 Peter 2:16) He can work through members at EvC as well as Pastors.
But what is the basis of your beliefs? Why do you believe what you believe? Because Jesus is alive in me. Also because I ask for wisdom. I could be wrong, for i won't be so arrogant as to assert that I know that I'm right in every detail.
What changes that makes you change your beliefs? I consider the logic of some new information and either accept it or reject it.
If your beliefs are based on the Bible I can see changing your views as you understand more of what the Bible means, but if the source of your beliefs is outside the Bible or contradicts the Bible I I don't see how you could possibly have any confidence in any of it. Again, the source of my beliefs is Christ in me rather than the Bible as a literal interpretation. Much of what I believe often does contradict the Bible...and jar, among others, points this out to me. Sometimes I change my belief slightly while other times I hang on stubbornly.
Yes but all other religions and atheists are following a false god so how could they NOT go to Hell? What do you base your idea on that they won't? Because God says that he will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. I believe that Gods mercy will save many whom otherwise wouldn't make it.
The idea of the "Higher Self" is a Hindu concept, it has nothing to do with the God of the Bible; what leads you to equate them? I realize that the idea is also a Hindu concept. What I am talking about, however, is the Spirit living within us. When you pray and meditate, you are not accessing your own higher self...you are communing with the Spirit. I think where we differ, if at all, is that you trust the Bible itself and I trust Christ in me. Thats why I am not as hung up on a literal Genesis as you are. The alternative is that God has tricked secular science. Does that seem rational in this modern world?
There's certainly no hint of such a thing in the Bible, so you must have some other authority for this idea. What is that authority? Good question. I'll have to think about and pray about that one. Edited by Phat, : added questionChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat,to Faith writes:
God does not pick and choose who makes it and who does not.Faith writes: The Bible says He does. jar writes: OK let's settle this. Does the Bible clearly say that God chooses or does the issue imply that humans choose? One of the great forces that drives people away from Christianity is Calvinist Biblical Inerrancy. I covered this briefly in the Calvinism and Arminianism Remix thread.
quote: Our question is what does the Bible clearly say and does it make sense? Personally, I disagree with the Synod of Dort. I also do not believe that God could be so controlling. It could well be that He thus would foreknow that Faith and I may end up in Hell and there is nothing we could do to change it. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Part of the problem is that the Bible isn't clear.
See this discussion for a start: Limited Atonement (Wikipedia)
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Interesting discussion! And you are right...it is controversial. I quoted the high points:
quote: I am quite sure I am not a Calvinist. I agree more with the latter points which refute it. Add By Edit: I reread the Calvinism/Arminianism thread and found that most of this stuff has been already discussed. Sometimes I feel that some of us rehash the same beliefs and arguments again and again and again.....I wish we could take a new approach for a change. That's another reason I question and revise my beliefs. I'm not convinced 100% of many of the historical arguments. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: OK let's settle this. Does the Bible clearly say that God chooses or does the issue imply that humans choose? The Bible does not clearly say anything; the Bible is filled with contradictions and factual errors. A basic problem within Christianity is the concept of "The Bible". That is a major error and had led to much of the perversion of the message that is Christianity Today. Many chapters of Club Christian attempt to make the claim that there is such a thing as "The Bible", that it is "One Book" and that it has "One Message". But the honest reality is that that is simply wrong. Those positions are easily marketed to children. Those positions are based on assuming facts not only not in evidence but in honesty refuted by the material itself. Those positions can only be held by willful denial of truth and reality. Remember, the Bible itself quotes Jesus as saying that both the Calvinists and the Araminianism position are wrong and that those who follow those positions are damning themselves to hell. That's the beauty of "The Bible". If you adopt the position that is held by either of those bodies then the Bible refutes your position. Unless of course you simply pretend that those passages don't exist and instead find quotes that support YOUR position. That's the beauty of something filled with contradictions. AbE: The answer is to remember that the Bible is NOT one book with one message. Edited by jar, : see AbE:
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
the problem, Phat, is that we can't rely on subjective experiences as our authority. People can think they are experiencing Christ in them, think they are hearing from Christ, and be wrong. We need an objective standard and that's why God gave us the Bible. Not to trivialize experience of course, I think personal experience is very important in solidifying our Christian faith, but it has to line up with scripture or we are in danger of being deceived.
As for the doctrines of election and predestination there are references in the Bible to both concepts, just search on those terms. Predestinated, chosen, elect, etc. We are chosen "from the foundation of the world," which sounds like predestination to me.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Because God says that he will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. I believe that Gods mercy will save many whom otherwise wouldn't make it. But Phat, NONE of us, NOT ONE, would make it unless we were brought to understand and embrace the gospel of Christ. God's having mercy on whom He will have mercy is ironically enough a way of saying it is HE who does the choosing of those He will save. And when He has mercy He gives us the understanding of the gospel, He equips us with Biblical knowledge. While He COULD save people without such knowledge it would be very odd if He did it that way for some and not the rest of us, especially considering that the entire New Testament is a revelation of His sending the Messiah for the purpose of salvation. He COULD bypass all that if He wanted to but I don't see one iota of a reason why He would.
Much of what I believe often does contradict the Bible Well then you are contradicting God Himself who gave us the Bible in order to protect us from all the errors we are prone to make through our own fallen minds.
I think where we differ, if at all, is that you trust the Bible itself and I trust Christ in me. You can't have any idea of Christ without the Bible.
Thats why I am not as hung up on a literal Genesis as you are. The alternative is that God has tricked secular science. Does that seem rational in this modern world? God hasn't tricked anybody. Science went wrong about evolution and the age of the earth because it trusts in fallen intellect rather than in God's revelation.
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