The power of prayers vs. The Divine plan

We have no choice in being born, yes. But we do have a choice as to whether we should be an axe-murderer, atheist, believer etc..Even if God knows I will become an axe-murderer, that's because I am going to make some freewill choices that go down that path. I think I know what you are trying to say though,(I think). Are you saying because he "knows" then the outcome will always be what he knows, therefore the choices are almost irrelevant?

Ofcourse, this can be similar to the flip of a coin. If we flip the coin three times, and God says it will be "heads" then I guess he knew the outcome. But I then say, I will now change my mind and flip it again, and it is "heads" then the change of mind was ofcourse freewill, as he hadn't counted on me flipping it again, yet he still knew the outcome. This shows that freewill is possible aswell as omniscience - surely?!?Even if he knows the outcome, we can still make a thousand billion choices that lead to it. Christ, "knew what was in man". And didn't need the testimony of man. (similar words) - sweet Asgara babe! Ahahaha - Tis me I tell you!

IMHO, even if GOD were omniscient he would choose not to be.But there is also the question of capability. GOD may well be able to be all knowing but simply choose not to be. Or, it could be selective.I am capable of learning most anything however I choose not to learn many things.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

If God knows what you are going to be before you are even born, how could you choose to be otherwise? What is the nature of free will? Is it free will if we think we are making a choice?

The issue comes about when an omniscient, omnipotent creator allows you "to be created" knowing how you will turn out. It isn't the fact that he knows, its the fact that he knows AND allows you to be born anyway.If you don't feel that god has all three of these attributes then this discussion is moot.edited to switch poster to nonAdmin modeThis message has been edited by Asgara, 05-15-2004 03:57 PM

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AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

To be honest, I cannot know whether he does have these attributes. I can only look and see what the bible says. Ofcourse, prophecy is a big part of the bible, as Buzsaw has bored us all with . So, I guess he does know how we will turn out. Maybe the final "outcome" is not related at all, to the freewill. In that, you can make as many freewill choices as you want, and it's "Final outcome" will remain independently the same. Our knowlege or lack thereof, of the fourth dimension is probably making this a bit of a brain twister this topic.

Hi WT,I don't "believe" this, it is a logical progression.I'm not saying whether or not I believe that free will exists, or whether or not I believe that god is all knowing or whether or not I believe that god is the sole creator of life. What I am saying is that logically, they can't ALL be true.

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com

Dear Spiritman:I think I kind of understand your perspective, though there is an important issue you may have overlooked. You're arguing from the perspective that God(s) exist(s) on the same time level as us: that is, when certain events happen to us and we have to make a choice/decision, God(s) waits for us to make it before deciding what to do next. Such would be the case with prayers (I encounter hardship, I pray, God listens, God makes my life easier to bear - in that chronological order) as well as you Abraham and other free will examples.However, the thing with omniscience (and eternal existence) is that God doesn't exist on our level. He/she exists on ALL levels. I believe that the phrase "He is everywhere" probably refers to this attribute more than anything else. The point I am making is, while the seconds and minutes tick away for us "short-timers" (to use the term coined by Stephen King) and we have to find out things in a natural chronological order (past -> present -> future), this restriction is NOT placed on God (yes, due to his/her assumed omniscience, God(s) knows all events from the very beginning). In other words, the "all-timer" (again, another Stephen King term) quality of God makes the world appear like a Rube Goldberg device, with the destined outcome of all and every parts predetermined (wow! keyword!) prior to its initiation.Using your example, Abraham appears to have a choice (display of free will) when he was in a fix about whether to sacrifice his son to the Lord, but if you assume that God already knew what choice he would make (omniscience) before he created Adam (and through his lineage, Abraham), then perhaps you will see that his choice was made FOR him via the creation process. Thank you for your input.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

How can a choice be a choice if the outcome of either alternative is the same?It's like the color choices for the Model T Ford - any color you want as long as it's black.

Using the timelessly eternal description of God is interesting, Aquinas would certainly agree, but there is no reason to make that assumption. It seems to fit the Biblical model of God better to have God plan, anticipate, and react, which is something a timelessly eternal God could not do. The debate over the timelessly eternal and everlastingly eternal God is another topic, though.There is one option which could reconcile the omniscient God with free will. Let's say God creates the universe. He sets it all into motion, up to the development of beings with free will. Free willed beings act as a random factor which are not under his control. He may still know the outcome of our choices, but he has ceased to control them.It all kind of depends on your definition of free will. Is it free will if the choices are ours, but the outcome is known beforehand?

Thankyou for your response Sleeping Dragon. It's not that he exists on the same time level as us, though the time thing may well cause some confusion I suppose. I think God still needs to "know" our decisions. I pray - God listens, God shows me how I should act in faith - if I do it, bingo - he gives the destiny. Even if he knew Abraham's choice he wanted to see Abraham's actions of faith. Also, when Peter said he would never deny Jesus, Jesus said he would deny him thrice. But notice the way God still had a destiny for Peter afterward. It seems that God is omniscient, yet he asks for our freewill anyway, in that - he wants to see what we will do, even though he knows. Maybe he knows every possible outcome, aswell as the actual outcome, the fact remains, we still make our own choices without his intervention. He knew humans would be sinful, yet he created them innocent. He knew they would entangle themselves without him. This is a misunderstanding. You are still relating Abraham's freewill to God knowing the outcome. Abraham was given a choice.If I say to you "Pick red or yellow", and I know you will pick yellow, surely you still had the choice.

Not by any conception of "choice" that I'm aware of.Moreover, if I say to you "pick a or b", and I know you will pick b, because I'm the creator of everything in the universe and I created you to do just that, you never had a choice. I made the choice for you.

This was all thrashed over awhile ago in another thread. I'm sure not good at the logic involved but it seems that if you know I will pick yellow then I can not choose anything else. If I can pick either then you can not know which it will be. The two are mutually exclusive.

Yet, let's imagine that I have a foresight or I am a seer of sorts, and I can "see" that you end up picking the yellow. If you pick the red, I am not going to say "You can't pick that one - it's not the one I seen". But in a sense, if my foresight is correct, then you have already picked a yellow one. I am only "seeing" what your choice (freewill) will be. If you wanted to then go against that outcome then that is fine - yet I will also have "seen" that change of heart - and not mentioned it. Maybe if we knew, or God told us the outcome to everything, then we could try and go against the outcome. Maybe the way this works is with God remaining silent about the outcome.This message has been edited by spirit man, 05-15-2004 09:09 PM

There's no "if", though. If you have 100% reliable foresight, and you see me pick the yellow, then there's absolutely no possibility at all that I will pick the red, by definition.If I did pick the red, that would mean that your foresight was not reliable, not that I excercised free will in the face of perfect foreknowledge.