Where does it say in the bible that the Universe is only 6,000 years old?

Ffnord says....
>>But gen.1:16 clearly states that the stars were created on the fourth day, and therefore not prior to the six days of creationBut surely you must know that there are some very good arguments to translate yom with "literal day". For instance, the word yom can mean an unspecified period of time, but usually means a 24 hour period. In combination with a number, such as "fourth day", it always means a literal day. Also, in Hebrew there is another word for "period of unspecified length" or "age" (but I've forgotten what that was), that would have been used had the periods of creation not been literal days. <<Yohm can mean an unspecified period of time and is used in Genesis as it is appropriate.Its true meaning can only be shown using the context of the surrounding scriptures and by utilising the whole theme and purpose of Jehovah God in the bible.Likewise the true meaning of 'Elohim' amongst other terms have to be defined by using the context of the surrounding scriptures so as to get a picture of what is going on.You say that you can't remember the other Hebrew term for a period of unspecified time.This term is "Oh.lam" This is by no means appropriate to use in line with "days".Oh.lam is associated with the sense of indefinite or uncertain time of which the beginning or end is uncertain.Yohm however encompasses a time with a beginning and end,but still unspecified time.Comparing Oh.lam and Yohm can show the subtle differerences between Hebrew terms and illustrates why certain terms were appropriately used in the translation.To the Israelites Genesis would have been more clear cut.For us it needs faith that the translation was correct,and if not satisfied you need to look at the original meanings of the key words.Ohlam is used at Genesis 6:4 The latter part reads "The mighty ones >>of old.<<
Other hebrew terms denoting unlimited time are "Adh"..everlasting or forever and Netsach...everlastingness or perpetual.All three words appear at Psalm 9:5,6 ....
5 You have rebuked nations, you have destroyed the wicked one.
Their name you have wiped out to time indefinite (le'ohlam), even forever.(wa'adh)
6 O you enemy, your desolations have come to their perpetual finish.(la'netsach)Quote..."And besides, I still think genesis 1:16 describes the creation, and not the uncovering, of sun, moon, and stars, especially when you read 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth."
The correct translation is "expanse".I'll reason on that in the next post.For now...At Genesis 1:16 the Hebrew verb bara, meaning create, is not used. Instead, the Hebrew verb `asah, meaning make, is employed. Since the sun, moon, and stars are included in the heavens mentioned in Genesis 1:1, they were created long before Day Four. On the fourth day God proceeded to make these celestial bodies occupy a new relationship toward earth’s surface and the expanse above it. When it is said, God put them in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth, this would indicate that they now became discernible from the surface of the earth, as though they were in the expanse. Also, the luminaries were to serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years, thus later providing guidance for man in various ways.Ge 1:14Previously, on the first day, the expression Let light come to be was used. The Hebrew word there used for light is ohr, meaning light in a general sense. But on the fourth day, the Hebrew word changes to maohr, which refers to a luminary or source of light. (Ge 1:14) So, on the first day diffused light evidently penetrated the swaddling bands, but the sources of that light could not have been seen by an earthly observer. Now, on the fourth day, things evidently changed.The perspective of the observer is the important point to note.You're probably still not satisfied! But if your spiritual hunger was likened to food,is it the taste that you never get satisfied,or is it the sense of never having your hunger satisfied?

Sylas says...
>>Where are the stars placed? In the firmament. So it is trivially erroneous to infer that the firmament excludes outer space.The proper conclusion is that the writers of Genesis did not make a strong distinction between the atmosphere and outer space. You've given no reason whatsoever for excluding space from the firmament, merely because it also includes things within the atmosphere.<<The correct translation is Expanse...Hebrew: "Ra.qi.a".
The expanse between the two waters is clearly defined in Genesis 1:6.The Heavens above the expanse and the heavens below the expanse.The stars,earth and sun and their light were made before in the heavens and then were made to gradually appear as if in the expanse and heavens of the sky above our head.Appearing through the gradually clearing thick cloudy cover over the periods of time (Days..Yohm.See above post).It comes down to the perspective of the observer.As mentioned in the above post.At Genesis 1:16 the Hebrew verb bara, meaning create, is not used. Instead, the Hebrew verb `asah, meaning make, is employed. Since the sun, moon, and stars are included in the heavens mentioned in Genesis 1:1, they were created long before Day Four. On the fourth day God proceeded to make these celestial bodies occupy a new relationship toward earth’s surface and the expanse above it. When it is said, God put them in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth, this would indicate that they now became discernible from the surface of the earth, as though they were in the expanse. Also, the luminaries were to serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years, thus later providing guidance for man in various ways.Ge 1:14.Their seems to be a confusion here on the idea of firmament being used by the hebrews as opposed to the true interpretation of expanse.The Greek Septuagint used the word stereoma (meaning a firm and solid structure) to translate the Hebrew raqia`, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating raqia` by the word firmament. However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading expansion, and the American Standard Version gives expanse in its footnote. Other translations support such renderingexpanse (Ro; Fn; Yg; An; NW); expansin (VM [Spanish]); tendue [extent or expanse] (Segond; Ostervald [French]).Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the Old [estament]Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.
While it is true that the root word (raqa`) from which raqia` is drawn is regularly used in the sense of beating out something solid, whether by hand, by foot, or by any instrument (compare Ex 39:3; Eze 6:11), in some cases it is not sound reasoning to rule out a figurative use of the word. Thus at Job 37:18 Elihu asks concerning God: With him can you beat out [tarqia`] the skies hard like a molten mirror? That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word skies here comes from a word (shachaq) also rendered film of dust or clouds (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.Compare Da 12:3.
So, too, with the expanse produced on the second creative day, no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It thus describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor.The Israelites are sometimes muddled in with the pagan poyltheistic peoples.Gods "chosen" people were so far away in their understanding of God and creation from the other nations beliefs and their worship of false gods for seasons,stella and natural objects e.t.c. Also with their absurd and fanciful views on how their gods created the earth and man.These heathen people would consistantly practice torture of captives and sacrifice children to man made gods.
These Hebrew people were purely monotheistic having the one belief in the God Jehovah.This is clearly born out in the scriptures.Mans history from Adam through to the set up of the kings of Israel.Jehovah God protected the lineage leading to Jesus,and Jehovah abhorred the digusting practices of the debased people outside of his monotheistic truth.

Rrain says....
That the days of the Genesis creation are implying 24 hour days.>>Genesis 1:10: And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.Genesis 1:13: And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Not only does the Bible state when the earth was created, the earth doesn't even get created first.But even if we go with your confusion of the earth for the universe, the Bible still says when it all started:Genesis 1:5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
That "day" means a day. Not a millennium. Not some vague, undefined amount of time. A literal, 24-hour day. If it meant something else, it would have said something else.<<Yohm the translation for "days" at Genesis means a period of time,but Genesis does seem to point to 24 hour days as rightfully pointed out above.This is because it says "The evening and the morning" at the end of each creative "day".(Ge 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31) God called the whole creative period of 6 "days" a day.Since the length of each creative day seems to exceed 24 hours,this expression does not apply to literal night and day but is figurative. During the evening period,things would be indistinct; but in the morning they would become clearly discernible. During the evening, or beginning, of each creative period, or day, God’s purpose for that day, though fully known to him, would be indistinct to any angelic observers. However, when the morning arrived there would be full light as to what God had purposed for that day, it having been accomplished by that time.The bible is full of illustrative,literal and figurative scriptures.To illustrate the above as being figurative, we can take another example.....Jesus was asked to give proof of being the son of God,by doubters. John 2:18-22.....18 Therefore, in answer, the Jews said to him: What sign have you to show us, since you are doing these things? 19 In answer Jesus said to them: Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Therefore the Jews said: This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days? 21 But he was talking about the temple of his body. 22 When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples called to mind that he used to say this; and they believed the Scripture and the saying that Jesus said.Here Jesus says that he could build the temple again within three days.Many continued to believe that he was going to perform a physical miracle and mocked him.He didn't reveal the true meaning even before or during his execution.....At Matthew 38 we read.. Then two robbers were impaled with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39 So the passersby began speaking abusively of him, wagging their heads 40 and saying: O you would-be thrower-down of the temple and builder of it in three days, save yourself! If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake.But the disciples knew what he meant.The Genesis "day" is not to be taken literally,likewise Jesus words "I will raise up this temple in three days" at John 2:18-20.is not literal.You therefore sometimes have to look at the context of the scriptures surrounding the supposed literal phrase and tie it in with other scriptures to get the whole picture.e.g.There are other scriptures to show that Jesus meant that,his body was the temple.This is our general belief within our religion,but "all things are possible with God" So we are open to other interpretations as new developments and understandings come to light.I can show you the biblical chronology that gives 6029 years of mans existence if you wish.This is based on a "pivotol" date.

QS:Sylas....>>Genesis is plain. The Sun, Moon and stars were made on the fourth day. It was not that they became visible on the fourth day, or that their light filtered through clouds on the fourth day. They were made on the fourth day.Anything else is denial of the biblical text. The attempt to make the creation of the Sun into a clearing of clouds is both scientifically ridiculous and also theologically sterile. The only point is to try and force fit with a modern cosmology; but Genesis is not a science text book, and it was not written with modern cosmology as the context.<<I agree the bible is not a science book.I didn't intend to explain it scientifically,but only from a basic human standpoint,with regards to the procedure of the account.It has to be explained in some way as Genesis refers to tangible things that exist today.We cannot explain the stranger biblical accounts by mans science,science that is known at present,not where God is concerned.His power and knowledge of his own creation,how we think,feel,the structure of everything and the properties of energy and matter are fully known to him.He can use this power at will.He utilised his power in the procedure of creation,in performing miracles and other seemingly impossible occurences.The miracles are easily realised if you consider that his amazing power was involved....Manna from heaven,the raising of Lazarus and prophecies e.t.c..The flood and the survival of the eight occupants happened because God was there to take control of the matter.Without Jehovah God the account of the flood is ridiculous.We do not know fully what the state of the earth was like when God came upon the planet that he had created,and what he did to form the earth and the preparation of the planet for man.He only gives us a basic outline.God will only reveal on a need to know basis.Similarly my Children know that they receive food,heat and light,but i don't reveal to them (at such a young age) where the power comes from,the bills to pay e.t.c..In time i will show them and in time God will show us how we came into existance.
Your measure of events are based on what the realm of known science encompasses,without the recognition that God was involved.Its your prerogative to believe as you do.I cannot see that everything has been forced into place.It is perfectly logical.All i can say is that the context of Genesis seems to show that the creation followed the procedure,as spelled out and in line with the Hebrew wording.For me to take the literal meaning of luminaries being made on the fourth "day" in the sense that the light sources became visible,but having been shown that they had already been created prior to the first "day".I might as well take other scriptures literally and not bother to look at the context of other scriptures applicable to the account, i.e Jesus words. "Break down the temple and i'll rebuild it in three days".I don't think that Jesus was going to get out the mortar and trowel and rebuild the temple in three days.So i'll look at the sense of what he really meant by looking at the context and the other scriptures that shed light on what he really meant.The same can be done for Genesis.Do you believe that Jesus meant that he would physically rebuild the temple in three days?

Rick Roses analysis is quite clear.Its through his understanding of a God of order that the Genesis account is spelled out.So many here are pulling out single scriptures and not looking at the context of the whole creation.It has been explained that the heavens and the earth were created,then the formation of the planet earth is prepared for Gods living creatures.The light is diffused gradually so that life can take place.This fits in with the Hebrew translations and a simple logical procedure of creation.However a scientific explanation cannot give a true determination of events and we don't propose this.It takes the intervention of Gods power,his active force (Hebrew 'ruach'.... the true meaning of holy spirit) to control matters.So we cannot explain it by scientific matters alone.All things are possible with God (Mt 19:26) How creation truly came about is not known in detail.Jehovah God only gives a brief outline,but that outline is within reason.Jehovah God could of had the Genesis account written through inspiration to Moses as a clearer narrative,but God did not intend to have only the intelligent come to him to attain salvation.This would give an unfair advantage to the smart,and the dumb could not come to understand God.God wants to conduct matters fairly.
He deliberately had Genesis and the bible inspirationally written so that it becomes a matter of faith in believing him and an emotional condition of heart-felt love to come to find out about his ways.We don't need science to prove his existance.Coming to know God by indepth study of the bible is enough to show what he is all about.Heavens.
The creation of the Heavens and earth in Genesis encompass all matter.Stars nebulae,galaxies,protons,electrons and the elements e.t.c.
The Hebrew word "shamayim "(always in the plural), which is rendered heaven(s), seems to have the basic sense of that which is high or lofty. (Ps 103:11; Pr 25:3; Isa 55:9) The etymology of the Greek word for heaven (ouranos) is uncertain.
The full scope of the physical heavens is embraced by the original-language term. The context usually provides sufficient information to determine which area of the physical heavens is meant.
There are many meanings for heavens in the bible.At Genesis it is obviously talking about space and the stars within.
The physical heavens extend through earth’s atmosphere and beyond to the regions of outer space with their stellar bodies, the fact that the heavens mean the matter and stars e.t.c. is born out by other scriptures...Psalm 8:3 When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers,The moon and the stars that you have prepared.Deutronomy 4:19 and that you may not raise your eyes to the heavens and indeed see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the army of the heavens, and actually get seduced and bow down to them and serve them, which Jehovah your God has apportioned to all the peoples under the whole heavens.T
he logic is that God would not have created the heavens with the earth stuck in the middle of emptiness.The stars would have been formed at the same time.Are we to analyse in the same way that Genesis has been analysed. the meaning of Jesus words at John 2:18...
"Therefore, in answer, the Jews said to him: What sign have you to show us,since you are doing these things? 19 In answer Jesus said to them:
>> Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.<< 20 Therefore the Jews said: This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?The literal account above has to be taken as figurative speech.Likewise the figurative meaning of light and creation e.t.c. within Genesis has to be taken into consideration.Is the existance of God improbable or impossible to the sceptics?
The impossible,but undeniable reality....The eternal everlasting and infinate stretching out of "space" exists.Incomprehensible but real.
The universe has no end,or that the realm beyond the known belief of an existant finite curved space universe has no end.
Liken the existance of the reality of the impossible endlessness that actually exists to your ideas that God is impossible,then you might be able to conclude that God can exist.

We all rest on our translation of literally everything in life.I am of the same religion as Rick Rose.All in our religion are united universally in our beliefs.The bible clearly gives the sense that the Sun and accompanying stars were created at Genesis 1:1What do you think the heavens at Genesis 1:1 mean?..Empty space with the planet earth somehow keeping its form in an emptiness with no atomic matter surrounding it? How would the earth have stayed in its position without the material of the universe,gravity e.t.c.physical laws to hold it in place.This is not logical,an earth created in a vacuumous void.Once we realise this cannot be,then the next step is to be reasonable and assume that the heavens consisted of atomic matter at that time the earth was created in Genesis 1:1 and the stars,planets e.t.c. are made up of atomic material.So reason should rule the day and the heavens at Genesis incorperated the universe full of millions upon millions of stars as we see it today.Have you read the posts prior to 56?

Q/S:Jar...
"The problem is that that ordering is nonsense and completely wrong. It is simply something that did not happen and so to ascribe some great significance to it means nothing"."First, if there is "a primitive earth in darkness and enshrouded in heavy gases and water" then there is an atmosphere. If it is enshrouded in heavy gasses and water, then there is an atmosphere. No way to get around that.Please look at Venus"."Second, if the Earth even exists, then the Sun must already be there so there is already light. No need to create it later".Have you read the previous posts?Its all spelled out for you.We can't keep on repeating this.What you have quoted from Rick Rose is a brief outline.Please look at the indepth ideas.

Q/S Sylas
>>(The earth is modelled as a globe.)"That is not a fact. There is nothing about globes in the account, and the account has strong parallels to cosmologies of other cultures in the region, in which the earth is represented as being supported by pillars above waters beneath, and with a domed sky (usually a god, in the other polytheistic cultures) over the earth, and the heavens like an ocean above this.The contrast with these other cultures in the Genesis account is, in my view, deliberate; and the intended lessons of Genesis are shown by the contrast between one creator God; and a pantheon of gods in the other cosmologies. That is, the teaching of Genesis is about one God, and it is expressed in the cosmological context of its readers and writers, as a carefully structured retelling of conventional contemporary cosmology within the new religious context."<<A globe is not mentioned,but it is implied. Genesis 1:1 states that the earth was created at the same time as the heavens.This was a complete creation.Jehovah God came upon the earth,the watery deep showing that the earth had reached at least some sort of circular planetary stage in development,in that the waters were held in place upon the earth and God doesn't do much else to shape the earth in the following "days" apart from dividing waters.Then the earth was ready for life.The earth could not have been stuck in the middle of a vacuumous void without atomic matter in outer space surrounding it,as the earth would not have survived.Apart from this it would not be the logical thing to do if you had the power to create the heavens and the earth.They would have beeen made together.
So we believe that the heavens were complete,but the earth had not been prepared by God as yet.This is logical.The first step in having the heavens with its atomic matter and the stars made out of this matter and its contents made ready for the next step,preparation of the earth.
As there was a universe made of all matter at the same time as the creation of the earth the stars had been created...The stars as globes and the planets as globes,with the earth included.
Wether the universe was formed out of an initial "big bang" is obviously not stated.Whatever,God controlled the situation.The misunderstanding here is the situation of light.I gave all of the actual true Hebrew words for the account in my earlier posts.Later on the light was strong enough to give life on the planet,but the shape of the "luminaries" as seen from the perspective of an observer on the earth could not be defined because of the cloudy cover.Not until Genesis 1:14.Science cannot be easily related to the Genesis account.We don't want to do this,but logic has to be applied.We don't know how the state of the earth and its life functioned during its early stages of creation.It states that there was an expanse with waters held above us,giving us completely unknown climatic conditions,so the way life motioned forward is not known.
There is a difference within the Hebrew words used in Genesis 1:1 and 1:14.. create and make.These words have different implications.(Pointed out in my previous posts.)The seasons were there for life to function before Genesis 1:14.This scripture merely implies that the sun,stars and the moon can now be defined visually,possibly because the cloud cover had cleared.The "luminaries" would be visual >>signs<< for the seasons.I don't agree that the Hebrews formulatted beliefs from the ancient traditions of other nations,or that they went in line with the false polythesitic ideas and cosmological idealisms.It was the other way round.
The root of the false gods and every bad practice comes from early Babylon.These people polluted the truth of a singular creator with a multitude of gods.These false ideas stayed with the other nations once they split from ancient Babylon,but God fearing people preserved the original truth of the creation as they went their separate way.The ideas of God and the concept of creation with the Israelites came from their close dealing with Jehovah God and his given creation account,plus his statutes and the monotheistic tenet was paramount.These points came directly from God.Jehovah said that he was a God exacting exclusive devotion as he was the creator.All other Gods and ideas were man made and totally shunned by the Israelites.The beliefs went hand in hand with the traditions,chronology and writings handed down to Moses from the flood survivors.God made certain that all aspects that he wanted to be known to us was preserved in the bible.I'll post my further reasonings (in line with the original Genesis question) on this matter in my next post.(If i get time today.)We can get the answer in the same way that linguistic experts got their answers about the origin of language. By placing the languages side by side and noting their similarities, an etymologist can trace the various languages back to their source. Similarly, by placing the religions side by side, we can examine their doctrines, legends, rituals, ceremonies, institutions, and so on, and see if there is any underlying thread of common identity and, if so, to what that thread leads us.
29 On the surface, the many religions in existence today seem quite different from one another. However, if we strip them of the things that are mere embellishments and later additions, or if we remove those distinctions that are the result of climate, language, peculiar conditions of their native land, and other factors, it is amazing how similar most of them turn out to be.

Fair enough. We'll agree to disagree.I don't totally disagree with a lot of what you post, when taking what you say from the perspective of science and evolution alone. Putting God into the equation and his creation at Genesis,changes the matter. This can be said for the rest of the bible.What is your "Scientific Genesis"?... ( Genesis meaning origin )A singularity of super-dense material?
What came before the "cosmic egg"? Was it a continuous fluctuation...expansion and contraction of the universe?
Where did atomic matter come from?Thanks for the information.... I've been lazy up to this point and haven't bothered to practice the correct way to post.Best regards
Rod

Q/S ...Ffnord ...
The earth created in a vacuumous void...
>>"I don't see why not. Life on earth doesn't need other planets, stars, interstellar matter, or nebulae. It just needs a bit of light (and warmth), but that was there since 1:3"<<Brilliant! Your knowledge is above Gods. You could have created it better than God no doubt. Created the earth in an empty vacuumous void with no surrounding atomic matter. Now why didn't God think of that. Maybe he wanted to play catch with his creation before he created the stars.Q/S Ffnord
>>"But Genesis is full of seemingly illogical things. And besides, who are you to judge what is illogical for an all-knowing God?" <<Who says i was judging God? Did i pass sentence on him? I was stating what i thought was a logical procedure or not.
Some of his creations are not logical though.
What else do you find illogical in Genesis?

Q/S Ffnord
Cromwell writes" Created the earth in an empty vacuumous void with no surrounding atomic matter."Ffnord replies...
>>"You think this is beyond God? And if He can't create the earth in a vacuum, then how did He create matter in a vacuum? "<<Admittedly it isn't impossible for Jehovah God to do what you state. It doesn't seem to be logical for a God of order to form an earth in an emptiness and then create everthing afterwards,especially so in line with the account.The wording at Genesis 1:1 would have said ... "In the beginning God created the earth" only. Why mention the creation of the heavens if they consisted of nothing? Is this not an anomaly? "In the beginning God created The earth and nothing". The heavens was something tangible with light producing stars.When someone says to you look at the heavens, are you expecting to look up at an empty black void with no stars or matter in it? You would instantly know what they mean. Other scriptures say this about the heavens. It doesn't state anywhere that the heavens mean a void.The Hebrew word "Metsolah" is translated "large abyss" at Psalm 88:6 Abyss, (Greek word Abyssos ) This gives the meaning "The infinate void" (Liddell and Scotts Greek English lexicon.) Metsolah would have been a more appropriate word to use instead of "Shamayin". (The actual translation of heavens used in Genesis.)
This is not to say that Jehovah God formed everything like a potter making pots out of clay. It was more than likely that God watched his creation develop over billions of years. Stars and galaxies forming and the earth forming into the state it became when God looked upon it. It was still his creation.At Genesis 1:1 the light was created as sun and starlight At Genesis 1:3 this sun light came to be on the surface of the earth as diffused light that was made to lighten up the darkness.Ffnord writes.
>>"What else do you find illogical in Genesis? While we're at creation: why did God create so many stars? The Bible says they are there "for signs for seasons, for days, and for years". But why so many that can not be seen with the naked eye? Come to think of that, why create them (sorry, unveil them in your view) on day 4 when Adam didn't appear until day 6 (which again according to you happened thousands or possibly millions of years later)?"<<These are very good questions. I've thought over this myself in the past.
God said to man after the flood "Be fruitful become many and fill the earth". This has always been Jehovah Gods intention, to make the whole earth a paradise. If man had not sinned and lost his perfection, then the earth would have soon have been filled. We are heading for a change. Jehovah Gods intention is to revert us back to perfection. The ransom price was paid back by the sacrifice of the life of his son Jesus, a perfect man. To buy back life for us for the rebellion of the first perfect man Adam, whom lost the perfection. So we are ready again for Jehovah God to put things straight. This is prophesised in the scriptures. It could be that Jehovah intends us to fill the earth and then with his help we will possibly start to inhabit the rest of his universal creation. Don't apply known science to this. I did say with Jehovah Gods help.
Apart from this don't you find that a clear night sky is something beautiful to contemplate over? Even though we can't see a high percentage of the stars,quasars and distant galaxies without the naked eye.Its a fascination in this day and age, as discoveries are made about the hidden universe.Unveiling the luminaries for seasons and indication of time on the fourth day was also for the benefit of the animals that came on the following creation period . Many creatures synchronise with the moon and tides. Turtles hatch and head for the band of light on the horizon. Moths (when its not being pinned on tree trunks),can be found fluttering in the moon light, or bouncing on and off of your lamp, as it is attracted by a light source representing the moon. Most animals are governed by light and dark,seasons e.t.c.Ffnord writes.
>>"And come to think of that: why would Adam need to keep track of seasons anyway? Such a thing comes in handy when you have to sow and reap, and prepare for winter and such. But in Paradise, everything was ready at hand for him, and not a cloud in the sky"<<Seasons were given too us for distiguishing time as a measure for man.The position of the sun in line with the tilt of the earth for the seasons to distinguish the time of the year along with the moon for the months and the day and night (obviously)
The original intention,it seems, was that the garden of eden was an example of how God wanted Adam and his progeny to cultivate the rest of the earth. Adam was expected to work at it. As it happened he was "booted" out of the garden and then he was even more thankful for the seasons.Ffnords writes
>>"And why did it take six whole days for God to create the universe? Why didn't he just snap His fingers? Isn't He supposed to be all powerful? And why did He need to see "that it was good"? Didn't He know in advance? And why did He need rest? "<<Exactly .Why six days (if you want to belief that) Why not one second. Its because it wasn't six 24 hour periods .This is how God works, He takes pleasure in his works. What i've come to see about Jehovah God is that his time is not our sense of time. It is interesting for him to watch his creation develop as much as we find it interesting watching our germinating seedlings grow into plants,or a good film. Why not just watch the ending? Its the colour and spice of life. As you learn about the bible you learn about the qualities of God.
He saw that it was good because he was writing this for us to read later. Its is primarily written for the early Israelites with a simple outlook on life. Maybe if we make something for our children we would say its good,to inspire them.
He rested because he was flaked out. He'd just created the whole universe in "six days", according to some.Also he'd probably have spent a few billion years groping around with a giant maglite in that infinate empty void trying to find the earth he'd created.Turn around once and the planet was gone.
Seriously though it was a rest in the sense of sitting back and looking at his creation,he was "chilling out" not because he was tired. He hasn't stopped as he has been helping man try to get back what he has lost.The theme of the whole bible.You're obviously top in the pub at question time. This comes as no surprise.You'd be even better at being the quiz master considering the questions that you ask.

The sucker effect
Q/S DoctrbillCromwell writes: "All in our religion are united universally in our beliefs".Doctrbill replies..."So are automatons and the brainwashed. But that doesn't mean y'all know WassUp. Beware you never have a thought of your own, for you will be outa there bub"You imply that i'm brainwashed! lol. A cliche. To use it shows how your mind-set is set in the worlds way of thinking, conditioned to repeat what others say about religion .And you think that you are not brainwashed? Every move that you make is because you have been conditioned to fit into society.
When a world war comes, you along with the gregarious sheep will no doubt soon follow like automatons doing as you are told, wether you think it right or wrong.When a world war did come in the depths of Nazi Germany a little known fact is nearly every member of my religion went to the concentration camps with the Jews, and there they were raped, beaten and killed. The difference is, we had a choice, whereas the Jews didn't. We were asked to "Denounce our religion, fight for your Country and you could go free", and only a mere tiny fraction succumbed in denouncing their faith.To stand up for your beliefs of what you know is good is not the result of being brainwashed, especially if torture and death are the alternatives, but to weaken before an evil is to succumb to the brainwashing effects of that evil.The bible says that the entire inhabited earth is lying in the power of the wicked one (1 John 5:18) The world is insane. Nazi Germany was madness. Satan is in control, if you're not with God then who are you with? So when one member of my religion was out preaching he was contemptuously asked .. "from what asylum did you escape from"?... It was fitting for him to reply. "The one you're still in."

Q/S Doctrbill.Cromwell writes
"How would the earth have stayed in its position without the material of the universe,gravity e.t.c.physical laws to hold it in place.This is not logical,an earth created in a vacuumous void.Doctrbill replies.
>>Why is the vacuum a problem for you? The universe is mostly emptiness; the closest thing there is to a perfect vacuum. Step out of your space ship and you'll see what I mean.The only "material of the universe" which acts upon earth to "hold it in place" is the material of the sun. But that would suggest that earth orbits the sun and the biblical authors clearly did not accept such a ridiculous idea. <<"Vacuumous void with no atomic matter. This is a problem, because it doesn't go in line with the account through the reasonings of my previous post.Q/S DoctrBill ....">>Cromwell writes: The bible clearly gives the sense that the Sun and accompanying stars were created at Genesis 1:1.Doctrbill replies.>>If you mean because it says "heavens" then you might want to reconsider. The Hebrew word here is shamayim, same as in verse four. Unlike your version of the Bible, the King James reads, "heaven" throughout chapter one, although shamayim is rendered both ways later on - singular or plural. Heaven is the name God gives to the raqia - the firmament. Interestingly, the word heaven is not applied to the sun, moon or stars; at least not in the first chapter of Genesis. The sun, moon and stars are called Lights (maor). They are not called Heavens. And these 'lights' are placed in "the heaven"; more specifically "in the firmament of the heaven," which is to say, In the structure which supports the heaved up things. And remember, the Heaven is still where God put it just after it was made. It is in the middle of the primeval water! The infrastructural components of the Genesis universe are three in number: 1) the Heaven (firmament), which separates the water of chaos (tehom) into upper and lower regions. 2) the Earth, (dry land) which appears when when the lower water is pooled (gathered into one place). And 3) Sea, the water which is under the firmament i.e. the water under the Heaven. This tripartate infrastructure is reiterated at Exodus 20:11 as a definition of Universe, to wit: "heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them" (Revised Standard Version)."<<There is no need for me to reconsider, i'm fully aware of the translations and meanings. I went over this point in one of my earlier posts on this topic. I think you must have missed them. I'll repeat them for your benefit...Light.
Previously, on the first day, the expression Let light come to be was used. The Hebrew word there used for light is ohr, meaning light in a general sense. But on the fourth day, the Hebrew word changes to maohr, which refers to a luminary or source of light. (Ge 1:14) So, on the first day diffused light evidently penetrated the swaddling bands, but the sources of that light could not have been seen by an earthly observer. Now, on the fourth day, things evidently changed. The perspective of the observer is the important point to note.Heavens
The creation of the Heavens and earth in Genesis encompass all matter. Stars nebulae,galaxies,protons,electrons and the elements e.t.c. The Hebrew word "shamayim "(always in the plural), which is rendered heaven(s), seems to have the basic sense of that which is high or lofty. (Ps 103:11; Pr 25:3; Isa 55:9) The etymology of the Greek word for heaven (ouranos) is uncertain.The full scope of the physical heavens is embraced by the original-language term. The context usually provides sufficient information to determine which area of the physical heavens is meant. There are many meanings for heavens in the bible.At Genesis it is obviously talking about space and the stars within. The physical heavens extend through earth’s atmosphere and beyond to the regions of outer space with their stellar bodies, the fact that the heavens mean the matter and stars e.t.c. is born out by other scriptures...Psalm 8:3 When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers,The moon and the stars that you have prepared.Deutronomy 4:19 and that you may not raise your eyes to the heavens and indeed see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the army of the heavens, and actually get seduced and bow down to them and serve them, which Jehovah your God has apportioned to all the peoples under the whole heavens.The logic is that God would not have created the heavens with the earth stuck in the middle of emptiness.The stars would have been formed at the same time.The correct translation is Expanse not firmament...Hebrew: "Ra.qi.a". The expanse between the two waters is clearly defined in Genesis 1:6.The Heavens above the expanse and the heavens below the expanse.The stars,earth and sun and their light were made before in the heavens and then were made to gradually appear as if in the expanse and heavens of the sky above our head. Appearing through the gradually clearing thick cloudy cover over the periods of time .It comes down to the perspective of the observer.At Genesis 1:16 the Hebrew verb bara, meaning create, is not used. Instead, the Hebrew verb `asah, meaning make, is employed. Since the sun, moon, and stars are included in the heavens mentioned in Genesis 1:1, they were created long before Day Four. On the fourth day God proceeded to make these celestial bodies occupy a new relationship toward earth’s surface and the expanse above it. When it is said, God put them in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth, this would indicate that they now became discernable from the surface of the earth, as though they were in the expanse. Also, the luminaries were to serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years, thus later providing guidance for man in various ways.-Ge 1:14.Their seems to be a confusion here on the idea of firmament being used by the hebrews as opposed to the true interpretation of expanse.The Greek Septuagint used the word stereoma (meaning a firm and solid structure) to translate the Hebrew raqia`, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating raqia` by the word firmament. However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading expansion, and the American Standard Version gives expanse in its footnote. Other translations support such rendering-expanse (Ro; Fn; Yg; An; NW); expansin (VM [Spanish]); tendue [extent or expanse] (Segond; Ostervald [French]). Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the Old [estament]-Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.
While it is true that the root word (raqa`) from which raqia` is drawn is regularly used in the sense of beating out something solid, whether by hand, by foot, or by any instrument (compare Ex 39:3; Eze 6:11), in some cases it is not sound reasoning to rule out a figurative use of the word. Thus at Job 37:18 Elihu asks concerning God: With him can you beat out [tarqia`] the skies hard like a molten mirror? That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word skies here comes from a word (shachaq) also rendered film of dust or clouds (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.-Compare Da 12:3. So, too, with the expanse produced on the second creative day, no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It thus describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor.

Q/S Rrhain
Cromwell writes.."Since the length of each creative day seems to exceed 24 hours"Rrhain writes...>>No, it doesn't. The length of each creative day seems to be precisely 24 hours. In Hebrew, "evening and morning of the nth day" means a literal, 24-hour day. No other interpretation is ever accepted.<<Long time periods representing "days" is accepted by millions of others. I've been over this point already. Taking into consideration the true meaning of the Hebrew term "Yohm",. However for one last time with a little more to add...The Bible does not specify the length of each of the creative periods. Yet all six of them have ended, it being said with respect to the sixth day (as in the case of each of the preceding five days): And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day. (Ge 1:31) However, this statement is not made regarding the seventh day, on which God proceeded to rest, indicating that it continued. (Ge 2:1-3) Also, more than 4,000 years after the seventh day, or God’s rest day, commenced, Paul indicated that it was still in progress. At Hebrews 4:1-11 he referred to the earlier words of David (Ps 95:7, 8, 11) and to Genesis 2:2 and urged: Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest. By the apostle’s time, the seventh day had been continuing for thousands of years and had not yet ended. The Thousand Year Reign of Jesus Christ, who is Scripturally identified as Lord of the sabbath (Mt 12:8), is evidently part of the great sabbath, God’s rest day. (Re 20:1-6) This would indicate the passing of thousands of years from the commencement of God’s rest day to its end. The week of days set forth at Genesis 1:3 to 2:3, the last of which is a sabbath, seems to parallel the week into which the Israelites divided their time, observing a sabbath on the seventh day thereof, in keeping with the divine will. (Ex 20:8-11) And, since the seventh day has been continuing for thousands of years, it may reasonably be concluded that each of the six creative periods, or days, was at least thousands of years in length. That a day can be longer than 24 hours is indicated by Genesis 2:4, which speaks of all the creative periods as one day. Also indicative of this is Peter’s inspired observation that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. (2Pe 3:8) Ascribing not just 24 hours but a longer period of time.Cromwell writes..
"Jesus was asked to give proof of being the son of God,by doubters."To put the scripture in full " In answer the Jews said to him:
"What sign are you to show us, since you are doing these things?" In answer Jesus said to them: Break down this temple and i will raise it up in three days?" John 2:18Rrhain replies...>>"What do Christian words about Jesus have to do with Genesis?"<<Anwser:The all important context...Rrhain writes..
>> We're talking about a Jewish text. We must necessarily follow the Jewish understanding. It's their religion, their book, they are the final arbiters. They say it means a literal day, so its a literal day.<<No it doesn't mean that. Jesus wasn't being literal in the scripture above at John 2:18Jesus was a Jew.He used Jewish text and applied it to his life,he quoted Moses.His descendants came through a lineage going back through the Israelites to Abraham down to Adam.There is a connection with Jesus,Hebrews,Jews and Moses the writer of Genesis.As a boy through to manhood Jesus studied the old testament and went along with the traditions that they followed,such as the Passover these were the same as those that the Hebrews of Moses day followed. In essence Jesus was the same as any Jewish Hebrew. The Christian words that Jesus used at John 2:18 were figurative and so were the words of "morning and evening" at Genesis.
Both quotes are applicable to the interpretation of literal meanings.....
So to quote your first sentence...Rrhain writes..
>> "The length of each creative day seems to be precisely 24 hours. In Hebrew, "evening and morning of the nth day" means a literal, 24-hour day. No other interpretation is ever accepted."<<.......So when Jesus says he'll raise the temple in the literal three days you must believe that he meant three days, as you take Genesis as literal? In your own words ...."No other interpretation is ever accepted" However other interpretations are accepted. And with the meaning of the words of Jesus when he said "Knock down this temple and i will raise it up in three days" The meaning is known. Its not literal. Neither are the days in Genesis literal.Cromwell writes:
I can show you the biblical chronology that gives 6029 years of mans existence if you wish.This is based on a "pivotol" date.Rrhain replies.
I've already given you the calculation to determine how old the earth is. If you're going to show me a different set of passages that result in a different number, I will not be impressed. The Bible is a cobbled together mish-mash of texts written by dozens of authors over centuries. It is not surprising to find that it contradicts itself. The question was, "Where does the Bible say the earth is 6,000 years old?" The answer is, "Follow the chronologies from Genesis through to the reference of an historical event. Add up the years and you get a result of about 6,000 years."The bible consists of 66 books that are interconnected,showing the history of man and the purpose of Jehovah God, and what is known as the question of universal sovereignty. Satans challenge to Jehovah God in the right to rule, also the giving of Gods son Jesus as a ransom sacrifice for our salvation e.t.c.
Contradictions are found only because of nitpicking at words and tunneled ideas in a persistance to try to prove the bible wrong, misinterpretations forced into the context of the scriptures without thinking about applying the power that God has to cahnge known science.Genesis is a logical account.If you don't want to see the chronology dates,fair enough.I've shown enough on this topic and will now move on to another. However the pivotol date that the chronology is deduced from is one where the findings of the world outside of the bible that you hold in such high esteem matches the biblical dates.

Rrhain replied >>In Hebrew, "evening and morning of the nth day" means a literal, 24-hour day. No other interpretation is ever accepted. <<Cromwell replied (Amongst other reasonings)....."Long time periods representing "days" is accepted by millions of others".Rrhain replied >>"Not by the Jews, and they're the final authority on what Genesis means. It's their book, their language, their text. For you to come along and tell them that they don't know what they mean in their own language in reference to their own religion is arrogant in the extreme and logically invalid."<< ">>And you failed to explain why you are more authoritative over what a Jewish text means than the Jews, themselves. Judaism understands Genesis to be talking about literal days. Who are you to tell them that they're wrong? "<<With respect, who's says that the Jews are the final authority?...They are an authority but not the final authority.
Ultimately Jehovah or Yahweh God is the final authority.
It is his inspired writing, his bible, his text and his language. We are his creation. He gave the old testament to the Hebrews, but he has the final say and the authority on opening up the scriptures beyond the Hebrews and Jews. He preserved the context of the bible for all of us to attempt to understand. This authority was given to Jesus. He let us preach freely to others the good news of the whole bible. Matthew 24 :14 , Acts 10:42....
"Also he ordered us to preach to the people".
God wants all to attain salvation, not to have it hidden, or truths stifled by some claiming authority. The early Church were guilty of this.All men are equal, we can equally find the truth in the bible. I have a right to my opinions. We can give our ideas on the truth of the bible because that is what God wanted. I and others here can debate the origins of Genesis. God gives us the right, he is the authority.
Furthermore Jesus came as a sacrifice to pay back our sins from Adam and let the whole world come to God. Once the price was paid by Christs perfect body having been taken in death, the truths were no longer restricted to the Israelites alone.The old testament laws were a preliminary build up to the coming of Christ. The laws given to the Hebrews were given as a teaching leading up to Christ...Galatians 3.24.."Consequently the law has become our tutor leading to Christ that we might be declared righteous due to our faith".The connection between the old and new testament is undeniableGalatians 3:29 Moreover if you belong to Christ you are really Abrahams seed, heirs with reference to a promise.Matthew 1:1 "The book of Jesus Christ son of David son of Abraham".With respect, Judaism denounces Christ as the prophesised Messiah. How can i agree with the final Judaistic authority, if i believe that Christ was the Messiah. The Jews that accepted Christ became Christians and the ones that didn't remained Jews. Jesus called the Jewish authorit, at that tim, offspring of vipers. Was that authority infallible ?If you believe that Judaism has the final say, then we might as well close the innerancy and faith boards down, forget about the millions of catholics and other monotheistic religions, as you imply Judaisms interpretation is infallible.Despite this i respect all religions and Judaism alike and listen to them. I'm sorry, ( if you are of the Jewish faith yourself ) and you are offended by my beliefs, but equally when i find that God is being dragged down to a mere figment of peoples imagination or belittled to being a God of illogical actions, when it is said that he is a God of order, it is offensive and i will defend his name . So we should be civil and conclude that we are not going to persuade each other.
I respect your argument it holds some weight but I don’t see that it ties in with how I have learned how God works, the context and the translated terms used .This opinion comes from years of study and not on a whim.Rrhain replied>>"Your continued reliance upon New Testament scriptures to provide meaning to Old Testament text is growing tiresome. I don't know how many times this needs to be explained to you: It is invalid to apply non-Jewish sentiments to Jewish text. What does Jesus have to do with Genesis? You're confusing the New Testament with the Old Testament again."<<You cannot explain it to me,because there is no way we can deny the connection of the bible as a whole unit.If it troubles you so that the words of Jesus in the new testament are quoted, here are some referrences to the term " day" from the old testament.Ezekial 4:6 And you must complete them. And you must lie upon your right side in the second case, and you must carry the error of the house of Judah forty days. A day for a year, a day for a year, is what I have given you.Numbers 14:34 The number of the days that you spied out the land, forty days, a day for a year, a day for a year, you will answer for your errors forty years, as you must know what my being estranged means.Are these to be taken literally as 24 hour days also?At the time of Jesus there were Hebrew speaking Jews and Greek speaking Jews Acts 6:1. Jesus was a Jew. He knew about the Hebrew ways of life.I picked out words used by Jesus as they are Jewish sentiments. The whole sentiments of the bible. The way that it is written : Illustrative, figurative, literal, tableaux, rhetoric e.t.c.
Its the same throughout. There is no escaping this fact. The bible books are as one. The new testament is much a part of the old testament as wings are a part of a bird. The prophecies and fulfillment about the coming of a messiah and results from the old testament are prolific here are a few ..Deu 18:15 Words of Moses... A prophet from your own midst,from your brothers,like me is what Jehovah your God will raise up for you to him you will listen.The Messiah in Bible ProphecyProphecy.............Event...........................FulfillmentGen. 49:10 .. Born of the tribe of Judah .Matt. 1:2-16; Luke 3:23-33Ps. 132:11; From the family of David .. Matt. 1:1, 6-16; 9:27; Acts 13:22, 23Mic. 5:2 .. Born in Bethlehem .. Luke 2:4-11; John 7:42Isa. 7:14 . Born of a virginMatt. 1:18-23; Luke 1:30-35Hos. 11:1.. Called out of EgyptMatt. 2:15sa. 53:4. Carried our sicknesses Matt. 8:16, 17Zech. 9:9; Hailed as kingMatt. 21:1-9; Mark 11:7-11Ps. 41:9; 30, 109:8..One apostle betrays him ..Matt. 26:47-50; John 13:18, 26.Zech. 11:12.. .. Betrayed for 30 pieces of silverMatt. 26:15; 27:3-10; Mark 14:10, 11Isa. 53:8 Tried and condemned.. Matt. 26:57-68; 27:1, 2, 11-26Isa. 53:7 Silent before accusers.Matt. 27:12-14; Mark 14:61; 15:4, 5Ps. 69:4 Hated without cause. Luke 23:13-25; John 15:24, 25Isa. 50:6;. Struck, spit upon . Matt. 26:67; 27:26, 30;Mic. 5: Ps. 22:18..Lots cast for garments.. John 19:3 Matt. 27:35;Isa. 53:12.. Numbered with sinners .Matt. 26:55, 56; 27:38;Luke 22:37Isa. 53:5, 8, 11,12Dies sacrificial death to carry away sins .Matt. 20:28; John 1:29;Jonah 1:17;.In grave,parts of three days,then resurrected..Matt. 12:39, 40; 16:21;17:23; 27:64Like wise Jesus and the early Christians referred to many characters of the old testament. It was there life,learning about the old testament day in and day out.This soon changedas anew message was put across.Jesus held onto the traditions of the Jewish people. The bible is not two totally separated books with no connection between the two. It merely has a gap of a few hundred years where one language was popularised and then the promised Messiah came, as prophesised. That Messiah fulfilled the prophecies, finalised the law covenant and opened up the teachings that were once only for the Israelites. Opened up to everyone.Apart from God having the final authority, the Hebrew scriptures were written around 1513 B.C.E by Moses in the wilderness. This was before the Jewish nation had properly formed, as the name Jew is derived from the tribe of Judah one of Jacobs twelve sons. All twelve tribes were wandering in the wilderness together before reaching the promised land. The first five books written by Moses were of Hebrew origin dating back to Abraham where the root of the Jewish, Muslim and Christian faiths are said to have derived. The tribe of Judah became the dominant tribe and all eventually became known as Jews. The writings became the law and scriptures for the Jews, but they were of Hebrew origin and the authority is a Christian one also.Rrhain writes>>If I say, "My name is Rrhain," you do not get to come along and say that when I say "Rrhain," I really mean "Lawrence." I am the final authority.<<This is an analogy of you... Rrhain, an authority likened to Jewish authority . But Gods authority is above all . God gave us the authority to analyse the truth within the newly opened up scriptures and to question anyone who gives himself a name to an authority above that of Gods.