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Author Topic:   Intelligent Design Creationism
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1422 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1 of 154 (109659)
05-21-2004 11:09 AM


Perhaps the most universally accepted scientific truth in our day is that ‘the Earth revolves around the Sun,’ and this, rightfully so, is used as an example of an assertion that only a delusional maniac would dispute. The truth is that for millennia, people used their common sense and asserted that the Sun was moving because this is what they clearly observed. When observations of solar, lunar, and planetary motion are taken in total, however, the only theory that provides explanatory and predictive power is the heliocentric model of our solar system. Strictly speaking, we do not witness heliocentrism, but all the available observations are explained by this theory.
Intelligent-design creationism takes advantage of the inferential nature of scientific knowledge to fire the imaginations of those for whom purpose and intent must be recognized in all aspects of Nature. The scientific method, they say, must not be tied to any philosophical prejudices or be used to disqualify any conclusions that may point to intelligence or purpose in the Universe. However, there are many problems with what seems like IDC’s call for objectivity in scientific endeavor. Chief among these is that science is principally searching for the cause-and-effect mechanisms that do not depend on the intervention of intelligent agents. We would not be satisfied with the explanation that water boils at 100 degrees Celsius because an intelligent agent controls the process. Neither should we accept similar ad-hoc explanations for biological complexity simply to appease those for whom the notion of scientific objectivity conflicts with their religious beliefs.
Methodological Naturalism (MN hereafter) is the only methodology that has produced results in the history of scientific endeavor. The assumption that mechanisms must be verifiable and testable is only seen as a prejudice by those whose understanding of philosophy and history is derived from creationist webpages. This assumption is only applicable to scientific research and has no bearing whatsoever on the question of religious faith. The assertion is often made that Newton, Pasteur and Einstein were all believers, and consequently that the revolutions in scientific thought that their research spurred were dependent on supernatural mechanisms. This is absolutely false. These believers conducted research that serves as a model for empirical evidential inquiry. They proposed natural mechanisms to explain natural phenomena, and made predictions based on their theories that were later borne out. Most significantly, they achieved their findings in a way comprehensible to, and repeatable by, other researchers regardless of their philosophical or religious backgrounds. Intelligent-design creationism does not propose a comprehensible mechanism, has never made testable predictions, and depends solely on its adherents’ wish to see purpose in Nature.
The proponents of IDC are adamant that intelligent intervention is an inference drawn from the evidence, and that the knowledge of the identity of the intelligence is irrelevant to the inference. To support this, they claim that their methodology is no different from that used by SETI researchers or archaeologists. This puts them in a double-bind that doesn’t help their case one bit. Since we have independent knowledge of human sculptors and tool-makers, they say, the discovery of scupltures on Mars or tools in certain strata can be used to support the inference of intelligent agency. However, when the subject at hand is ancient microbiology and the sudden creation of species, we first need to have independent knowledge that intelligent agents have been responsible for these phenomena. By claiming that the identity of the designing intelligence is irrelevant (and admitting therefore that there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of such an agent), they assume everyone takes for granted the possibility that intelligent agency is just as likely an explanation as natural processes for the design, billions of years ago, of the bacterial flagellum or proto-replicators. It’s worth noting that an archaeologist who claimed to have found a human artifact in billion-year-old strata would indeed lead us to the conclusion of design, namely fraud.
The foundation of the IDC argument is the inadequacy of natural mechanisms to account for certain natural phenomena. Regardless of the inadequacy of arguments based on non-natural mechanisms, the basis of naturalism’s inadequacy is never explained. We are never told why natural, material mechanisms serve to explain (among many other things) the weather, heredity, and disease, but that there may be phenomena that are not accessible to naturalistic explanations. Without this understanding of the limitations of naturalism, we have no reason to assume that any natural phenomenon (whether its origin is understood or not) is by definition support for the existence of intelligent agency in Nature.
Those who wish to see proof that the heliocentric model of our solar system is false need only look up and witness the Sun moving through the sky during the day. Similar common-sense arguments are put forward to support the inference of intelligent agency against what creationists see as the reigning scientific orthodoxy. Those who wish to make the inference are following a limited amount of observable evidence where they want it to lead. Intelligent design creationism is just such a selective, subjective methodology, and it speaks for itself.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Loudmouth, posted 05-21-2004 1:44 PM MrHambre has not replied
 Message 5 by jar, posted 05-21-2004 2:35 PM MrHambre has not replied
 Message 10 by custard, posted 05-26-2004 6:06 PM MrHambre has not replied
 Message 20 by John Paul, posted 06-07-2004 4:18 PM MrHambre has replied
 Message 27 by Monsieur_Lynx, posted 06-07-2004 6:30 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1422 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 9 of 154 (110426)
05-25-2004 1:54 PM


John Paul responds to me in the "What is Science?" thread:
1) Designers can design each and every form of living organism which exists or has ever existed on Earth but leave no evidence of their own existence.
John Paul:
The evidence of their existence is seen through the microscope, in the mathematical form the natural laws take and many more forms that are discussed in the book Signs of Intelligence: Understanding Intelligent Design.
And we're still wondering why this inference has to be made. Couldn't the mathematical consistency of the natural laws be an argument against an intervening intelligence? It seems that natural law is only fine for IDC'ers when they're praising the austere beauty of physics, but then they claim natural law and material processes are insufficient to explain life on Earth.
2) Designers can produce designs that appear to be the products of billions of years of evolution, with telltale signs that they are related by descent to every other design (even those which are extinct) but are actually special creations.
John Paul:
You obviously have no clue what ID is. Ignorance is one thing. Wilfull ignorance is a shame. ID does NOT go against common descent. But you would know that if you had a clue.
The fact is, we have clues as to the patterns of heredity among life forms on Earth. You're the one that says we shouldn't use them as evidence of evolution, or common descent. Or are you saying evolution is not based on material processes, but guided by an intelligence? It's hard to understand what you're saying when I'm trying to dodge the shit you're constantly flinging.
3) Designers can produce designs that are redundantly, unnecessarily complex, but these designs should still be used to testify to the intelligence of these designers.
John Paul:
What we now observe is the result of mutations culled by NS on the original design(s). BTW if you or any other human can design life better please do so or consider youself incompotent or stupid.
What original designs? Whenever we find biological designs, we always notice that there are clues to previous design work, the telltale signs of the ongoing workings of the mutation-selection machine. We assert that all this design work is an ongoing process, and you need to offer some evidence that intelligent agency is even a plausible explanation for the billions of years of biological tinkering we see in these designs. The point is that designs that emanate from intelligent agency can be judged 'good' or 'bad,' and those that we see in Nature seem unlike anything we currently understand to be intelligently designed.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by John Paul, posted 06-07-2004 4:29 PM MrHambre has not replied
 Message 23 by John Paul, posted 06-07-2004 4:29 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1422 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 26 of 154 (113372)
06-07-2004 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by John Paul
06-07-2004 4:18 PM


Magic Happy Love Science
John Paul,
Once again, you surface tossing IDC-flavored excrement at the ignorant defenders of the naturalistic paradigm. Your tune never changes. "There is no evidence for a naturalistic origin of life" is an easy thing to say, but offering evidence for an, ahem, non-naturalistic origin is something you have never done. Many have come here drunk on the highly flammable potions peddled by the IDC camp, but none have ever offered anything in the way of testable, plausible, realistic hypotheses concerning Purpose or Design in biology.
Since you abandoned your "What is Science?" thread, I guess we'll never understand the basis of your attack against methodological naturalism. It seems like the usual smoke and mirrors, since we're told we're unjustly limiting our options by not allowing invisible, untestable, undetectable, magical mechanisms to be proposed to explain natural phenomena. Again, no one can say what constitutes a non-natural mechanism and how such a thing explains the phenomenon in question.
Drawing an inference is another thing we ignorant naturalists obviously don't do particularly well, since we don't fall for IDC's design inference. Since we keep discovering new and marvelous mechanisms that enhance our understanding of the power of the mutation-selection machine, there's no reason to think that all naturalistic options for natural phenomena have been exhausted. Please point out the track record of non-natural mechanisms enhancing our understanding of the natural world. Please inform us of a non-natural mechanism that has ever been discovered to be responsible for a natural phenomenon. On the other hand, the inference that mutation-selection is responsible for biological diversity is drawn from a vast array of observations, research, and inquiry. The IDC'ers tell us that's just not enough, or argue that it's irrelevant, or fling whatever piece of shit is handy.
Intelligent Design Creationism has no basis, no consistency and no track record in the lab or professional literature. It's easy for the IDC camp to claim that their work and methodology is being ignored by an entrenched scientific establishment hell-bent on protecting its vested interests. It's much easier to realize that IDC has presented no work and methodology in the first place, only incendiary rhetoric.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by John Paul, posted 06-07-2004 4:18 PM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by John Paul, posted 06-09-2004 2:40 PM MrHambre has replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1422 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 39 of 154 (113955)
06-09-2004 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by John Paul
06-09-2004 2:40 PM


Re: Magic Happy Love Science
John Paul,
Welcome back. Instead of dedicating so much of your wonderful posts feigning ignorance at the IDC tag, perhaps you should define your position and methodology for us. You continue to use the word 'naturalism' in the most pejorative sense imaginable. However, when I ask directly for evidence of a non-natural mechanism to explain natural phenomena, you merely quote Behe talking vaguely about the design inference. Why should interconnectedness, or irreducible complexity, or any other attribute of a living organism, point to a non-natural origin? We are still awaiting evidence that living organisms, or biological structures thereof, have ever been designed by intelligent agents. Since Stonehenge isn't a reproducing organism, we infer that it was built by intelligent agents. It's not so clear when it comes to living organisms, who reproduce themselves through understood mechanisms of heredity.
Since you deny the existence of any persuasive evidence among the vast amount of existing evolutionary literature, I daresay you're wasting your time telling me to 'get off of your lazy butt' to read anti-Darwinian tracts. Your only response when asked for a testable scientific hypothesis is to demand that I seek out creationist books and websites. I appreciate your recommendation, now could we discuss science?
If you don't feel like defining your terms, then please don't be surprised when I define them for you. You have said that there are 'original designs' from which all modern organisms descend. Please give us your evidence for this assertion. You have said that science's demand that all mechanisms be naturalistic constitutes bias. Please show us one natural phenomenon that we understand using the non-natural mechanism you propose.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by John Paul, posted 06-09-2004 2:40 PM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by John Paul, posted 06-09-2004 4:34 PM MrHambre has replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1422 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 41 of 154 (113976)
06-09-2004 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by John Paul
06-09-2004 4:34 PM


Don't Go Figure, Just Go Away
John Paul alleges:
quote:
Anything that nature couldn't do by itself including a beaver dam, would be non-natural.
I'm impressed that you are so certain of precisely what Nature is able and unable to accomplish. I'm astonished that Nature is able to produce a baby from a fertilized egg without the direct intervention of an Intelligent Agent. Perhaps you'd like to explain exactly why Nature is unable to produce anything having the attribute of IC, when such things seem abundant in the biosphere. Hint: Behe doesn't mention why either.
added by edit:
I submit that intelligent agents are unable to create ex nihilo cells that reproduce themselves, so your mechanism is not a possible explanation for the phenomenon of biological life. Can you present any evidence that refutes my statement?
regards,
Esteban Hambre
This message has been edited by MrHambre, 06-09-2004 04:03 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by John Paul, posted 06-09-2004 4:34 PM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by John Paul, posted 06-10-2004 2:59 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1422 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 52 of 154 (114428)
06-11-2004 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by John Paul
06-11-2004 10:56 AM


Give Me a Break
quote:
I am unaware that nature even has a uterus.
So your wife designed her baby? Her intelligent agency was necessary to sequence the baby's genome and conduct the entire process of cell division that nature is unable to facilitate?
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by John Paul, posted 06-11-2004 10:56 AM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by John Paul, posted 06-11-2004 11:21 AM MrHambre has replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1422 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 54 of 154 (114434)
06-11-2004 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by John Paul
06-11-2004 11:21 AM


Re: Give Me a Break
quote:
Where was nature during her pregnancy or during copulation? I didn't see it in our bedroom.
Bad visuals. Severe trauma. Dan, pass me the lye, will you? I'm getting rid of these eyes once and for all.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by John Paul, posted 06-11-2004 11:21 AM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by John Paul, posted 06-11-2004 11:48 AM MrHambre has not replied

  
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