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Author Topic:   Reagan May Have Died, Cannot Recall At This Time
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 84 of 109 (114388)
06-11-2004 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by berberry
06-09-2004 4:39 PM


I found Dan's title obvious, though I admit if it had been... or I thought it had been... what you believed it to mean, I guess it would be tacky.
But offensive? That's a little much given the nature of RR and his family.
And I think you missed the point of the challenges being made to your post.
For all those saying how we have to remain silent out of respect for the grieving family of those that have died, where does that line of respect end?
Do we ALL have to be silent for a week when Saddam Hussein dies? Even if just out of respect for his family? If not, why not?
Does or Doesn't his murder of many citizens (his own and others) make him less worthy of respect? Well Reagan helped him do it, encouraged him to do it, in order to control Iran and radical Islamic insurgents in the region. It seems that as much as you'd be for criticizing Hussein you should be for criticizing Reagan.
Some may debate RR's full role with respect to Hussein, but that is besides the point, if it is a person's opinion that he had a full role, why shouldn't that person be able to criticize the man once he dies... or celebrate his death as I suspect many will when Hussein dies, with NO RESPECT for the family.
Shall we all mourn the passing of those who have beaten gays to death, if not just remaining silent out of respect for their families?
Hmmmmm. Well how about those who vocally blamed gays for their own deaths, just because they were gay, without a care for their grieving families? Doesn't it seem just a bit hypocritical if such a person or his family asked for such consideration when they granted none?
Well that is RR and his family. They did not show mercy or consideration for the victims of AIDs. At first RR blamed gays and blocked funding in research, dooming many people (straight and gay) to an early death.
And once he became "concerned", he was more concerned that the US be considered the discoverer of the cause of AIDs, and actively hindered French research, which doomed many more to an early death.
Ironically, many died under the same conditions that RR would come to suffer... dementia and pneumonia. For all those looking for a just God or Gods, perhaps that was a billboard. If he had not blocked research in to care for gays and then AIDs patients, perhaps they would have had more info to keep him alive longer (at least the pneumonia part).
And you have claimed some sort of affinity with the suffering of that family because you have alzheimers in your family. First, have you known no one with HIV?
Second, don't you find RR's family less appealing (at least Nancy) when she only began backing stem cell research (ie turned traitor) when RR became ill. Gee maybe if in the 80's he had gotten HIV, or more fitting their son, perhaps we would have had them praising AIDs research and gays instead of bashing gays and dooming the HIV infected to a torturous death.
I don't think RR or his family deserve any respectful silence, because they not only supported the deaths of countless numbers of people from war and disease, but they (and especially RR) gave no respect to thos dead or their families.
I think when Hussein dies I'll start a nice thread so that everyone can say how we have to be silent out of respect for him, and see how many feel that is justified.
And I'd just love to hear what all you respectful people have to say about Reagans support of Saddam Hussein, since we just had to lose over 700 of our own and kill 9000+ Iraqis, to remove him. What a monster and all those mass graves. How many were under Reagan? Whoops. Guess that wasn't "communicated" to the US properly at the time.
This message has been edited by holmes, 06-11-2004 07:51 AM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by berberry, posted 06-09-2004 4:39 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by berberry, posted 06-11-2004 2:30 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 87 of 109 (114503)
06-11-2004 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by berberry
06-11-2004 2:30 PM


Thanks for once again bringing this up.
Sorry, what I was mainly trying to get at was not that you were wrong for having felt his title was referring to alzheimers. I was just noting that I found it obvious. If it felt like I was pressing that point, then like I said, I'm sorry.
My main point is that I felt such a reference would not really have been offensive, given his own history of not caring and allowing derogatory remarks to be made (if not making them himself) about others that have died.
I do not find your defense of Nancy very reasonable. Okay, I will not fight her now that she's joined the right side of the stem cell debate, but I am certainly not going to pretend that the realization of her initial error was because of her selfishness.
When powerful people switch sides on drug abuse, and sexual orientation, and etc etc only after it suddenly hits them personally, where they punished those who asked for equal consideration before, I have very little care for their suffering. Yeah maybe she really has changed for the better. But I'd never know for sure and given her continuing lack of compassion on other issues, I doubt it.
If anything I have more respect for Laura Bush who apparently has the strength of her convictions such that she also suffered from having alzheimers in her family and is not going to bend. I'll fight her, but at least I'll respect her.
Nancy, I'll just ignore. If she can help, great. Otherwise she can buzz off.
Not that you are wrong for the position you have taken, and not that I don't understand it, but I do feel your position is a bit mercenary. If this experience had made her a staunch opponent of stem cell research and instead a firm advocate of Xian faith healers, would you really be as caring for her feelings?
As it is you never answered the underlying question I was putting to you, and which others have as well. How much respect are you required to have to remain quiet while those you dislike mourn?
Do you really believe that people should be quiet when Saddam Hussein, or BinLaden, or people that kill gays die? What separate them from RR?
I have very little respect for RR or his family, in fact almost as little as I have for Hussein (though BinLaden is worse), and definitely as little as I have for gay killers. (Not sure if you read Dan's link to the conference with Koop. Even he recognized that the environment RR created within the nation has led to the very types of persecutions of gays that we have seen.)
Now maybe Dan and others have even less respect for RR than I do. I guess he must as I would not have bothered to open a thread on him.
Okay fine, YOU have enough respect that you feel YOU would not criticize RR at this time. But you have already somewhat admitted that you were capable of criticizing someone at this time. If you would not be limited in such a case, why can't others have that little respect of RR that they have a right to criticize him in whatever tacky or offensive (to you) manner they feel is appropriate for him as you might feel is appropriate for others?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by berberry, posted 06-11-2004 2:30 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Abshalom, posted 06-11-2004 4:00 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 100 by berberry, posted 06-15-2004 4:11 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 88 of 109 (114506)
06-11-2004 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Abshalom
06-11-2004 3:42 PM


Re: Amen!
Okay, you please explain how his support of Saddam Hussein, including the gas attacks of Kurds and Iranians was beyond reproach? How about his hamstringing of AIDs efforts as the crisis was just unfolding?
I assure you the only wetness in my pants during his terms in office was when he massacred education funding as my college costs skyrocketed... and when I graduated into the depression (or Recession) he created.
Do you honestly believe no one should criticize Saddam Hussein when he dies? Even if just out of respect for his family? If someone has that little respect for RR, perhaps because they suffered or knew others that suffered or DIED under his policies, why can't they complain about him?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Abshalom, posted 06-11-2004 3:42 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 90 of 109 (114523)
06-11-2004 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Abshalom
06-11-2004 4:00 PM


Uhmmmm... I believe if you sift through my posts, especially with regard to the Iraq War, you can find some of my criticisms of RR. I don't think any of the other subjects came up for me to address so I haven't.
Since he died someone started a thread, which produced commentary on a variety of subjects connected to RR, and so I mentioned the others.
I think it's a little odd to say that criticisms, like praises, will not surface when a person dies and so reenters the public eye. Death is an event which stirs public interest, both positive and negative because it causes us to remember someone we may not have thought of in some time.
I guess I do agree that it is somewhat odd to go overboard in one way or the other, beyond what one would naturally feel, just because someone died.
Then again, I totally believe it is hypocritical to treat someone nicer in death than you thought of them in life. I think it was George Carlin that said death is the perfect time to criticize someone openly, where you might not have earlier, because they aren't around to get their feelings hurt.
Frankly if he and Nancy were nicer to the living when they were in power, I might be a bit more sentimental now that one of them has died.
I just keep thinking of those mass graves we were supposed to hate Saddam for. You think the families of these people should keep their traps shut while Nancy mourns?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Abshalom, posted 06-11-2004 4:00 PM Abshalom has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Abshalom, posted 06-11-2004 6:46 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 92 of 109 (114647)
06-12-2004 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Abshalom
06-11-2004 6:46 PM


when someone dies, and only then, it becomes absolutely essential to discuss such mundane political issues like AIDS, stem cell research, and war.
#1... This is a forum on Evolution vs Creationism, thus the general ongoing topics will be uhmmmmm items regarding science and religion?
#2... You can't possibly be replying to me. Although I believe HIV may be a relatively new topic for me to discuss in as much detail as I have, I have been active in discussions on gay rights, abortion, pornography, propaganda, economic scandals, Israel-Palestinian issues, Islamic Fundamentalist issues, and beyond any question war War WAR!
It never took anyone dying for me to address these issues (at least no one particular person).
Nice attempt to dodge actual discussion though...

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Abshalom, posted 06-11-2004 6:46 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 98 of 109 (114862)
06-13-2004 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by custard
06-13-2004 11:06 AM


Maybe you can answer the questions some have put forward. Do you believe that people must stay silent regarding their true feelings towards someone that has died, even if just our of respect for the family of that person?
And if there are exceptions, what are they (the criteria), and why is it not possible that RR fulfills those criteria for some people?
This is not to argue whether those people may be right or not about the claims they make about the dead person in question, but if they truly believe those claims to be accurate, should they have the right?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by custard, posted 06-13-2004 11:06 AM custard has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 101 of 109 (115288)
06-15-2004 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by berberry
06-15-2004 4:11 AM


I can damn Reagan to my heart's content, but for some reason I don't feel motivated to. It's been so many years that I'm just not very excited about the prospect of getting into an argument about Ronald Reagan's presidency.
Actually this is how I felt as well. That is until the news coverage kept forcing him to the front of everything. And even then I didn't feel excited enough to start a thread or anything.
All I was really concerned with in posting anything was, after reading both Reagan threads, questioning why someone (like dan) could not feel RR rose to the level of "murderer, rapist or other violent criminal", and in another thread to knock some policy statements which were inaccurate (though supporting one that was).
I am curious about your condemnation of Nancy
When I think about it, most of my favorite people have ended up challenging their original beliefs (and getting blasted for that) after realizing they were wrong.
To me there is a difference between a person that seeks the truth and winds up discovering their own error and having the guts to stand up for the truth, and someone who has fought others in the past and only when it hurts them personally do they become interested in seeking what can convenience them instead.
The anti-abortionist that becomes pro-choice when a daughter gets pregnant (or a son's girlfriend), the hawk who becomes a dove AFTER a relative has been lost etc etc... these are not heroes. These are not people to be praised. They were the oppressors, and have merely learned the error of their ways. Not only should we not be praising them, they should not be hogging the spotlight on issues. A bit of humility please.
What's worse is when you see their "change" not affect other portions of their lives beyond the one most convenient to them.
I guess I am not an expert on Nancy Reagan. Maybe this has caused her to have a real paradigm shift on many issues, but I am unaware of her championing any other causes... some which out to "stem" directly from this cause. Has she now become a pro-choice advocate?
Has she renounced her original hard line drug war stance... including her original praising as a "model" kids should follow, a child who wouldn't take a hit even when threatened with being burned to death (and instead was just burned badly)? At the very least, let's hear that support for medical marijuana.
And what about euthanasia? What about the choice of those who would not want to see their loved ones suffer needlessly and want to end the pain?
I guess when I see her becoming a champion for other rights which did not affect her personally, then I'll start believing she had a paradigm shift. Otherwise it's same old same old. When its good for Nancy, its good for everyone. When she don't like it, screw 'em.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by berberry, posted 06-15-2004 4:11 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by berberry, posted 06-15-2004 5:27 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 103 of 109 (116346)
06-18-2004 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by berberry
06-15-2004 5:27 AM


Just so you know I am not ignoring you, I simply had nothing to say to yoru reply. I don't give her the leeway you do, but its fair if you want to. And I guess we are both better served with more examples from Nancy on whether she had a paradigm shift or not.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by berberry, posted 06-15-2004 5:27 AM berberry has not replied

  
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