Evolution is Not Science

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Originally posted by Percipient:
When you visit a museum and see the fossil reconstructions you're looking at raw scientific data. The link I provided about speciation contained references to scientific papers, so you obviously didn't even follow the link. The books on evolution that most of us here rely upon here reflect the findings of scientific papers and journals. If you'd really like to see "raw scientific data" for yourself then I suppose you could find it in a university library.

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--Percy

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***Your reply simply proves a point that I have made time and time again, that being, that the majority of Evos haven't got a clue when it comes to the raw scientific data that supposedly supports their belief in evolution. And as to your statement that "When you visit a museum and see the fossil reconstructions you're looking at raw scientific data.", I think this is at the least a spurious statement, if not an outright cop-out. You know full well that a reconstructed fossil is not a good example of raw scientific data. It may indeed be the end result of some scientific endeavor, but that is not what I asked for. You also stated, "The books on evolution that most of us here rely upon here reflect the findings of scientific papers and journals.", so why not provide the references to those scientific papers and journals, if you are already privy to that information? Why is this request for information so difficult for Evos to fulfill? This is not an unreasonable request.*** Shalom Jet------------------
As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?Prof. George Greenstei

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Originally posted by Percipient:
You wanted "raw scientific data", I mentioned fossils, and what could be more raw than the actual fossils from the ground? I provided you a link with references to papers about observed speciation, you don't seem interested in those either. I'm willing to discuss any facet of evolution at the level of knowledge I possess. If you'd like to discuss anything I stand ready.

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--Percy

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***OK, open one of those books that you mentioned, check the back of the book for the reference sources of the material provided within, and supply me with that reference material. I will then use that information on my next trip to the library. OK?*** Shalom Jet------------------
As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?Prof. George Greenstei

As requested by the EvC Forum Administrator, this deleted message is being reposted here, which should be a more appropropiate forum than the one in which it originated.Message origination:
Evolution versus Creationism
Is It Science?
A Christian (and creationist)'s condemnation of "Creation Science" (Page 4)Originally posted by minnemooseus:I think I'm striving for more of a "creationism and evolution can get
along" type topic, here. Creation by evolution. See also, the
Kenneth Miller: Finding Darwin's God topic.Have a nice day, Moose***An observation of the problems involving the co-existance of
evolution and creation.***Jetscientific_case_against_evolution.htm[/URL][Shortened too-long link. --Admin] Shalom Jet------------------
As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?Prof. George Greenstein

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[This message has been edited by Admin, 06-17-2002]

Originally posted by edge:
Or maybe they don't take you seriously. Or maybe the right persons are on vacation this week.***Or maybe, just maybe, it is as I suspect, that the average Evo hasn't got a clue as to what the facts are concerning this so-called evolutionary science, and the majority of Evos believe simply because they have been taught to do so. I readily acknowledge that a large number of "religious" people are guilty of this same offense. That is made quite evident by their following the doctrines of men, even when those doctrines are clearly contradicted by the Holy Word of God. It seems evident that some participants in both camps, creationists and evolutionists alike, are guilty of following the doctrines of men.***Jet***This next part of your response requires that I take it point by point. So here goes.***JetPoint #1
Edge: Now, why not answer my question? You simply passed it off as to what convinced you of YEC, or ID, as the case may be. You seem to require a small thesis from us as evidence, but what is it that led you to your own viewpoint?***While I willingly acknowledge that my beliefs concerning ID and OEC do require a certain degree of faith, Evos say they need no faith to believe in evolution. They claim they have the evidence, though they seem extremely reluctant to elaborate when pressed for that evidence. Many are capable of parroting the popular evolutionary dogma, but when it comes to providing skeptics with the hard facts, they tend to use the same tactic that you have used here.My own personal viewpoint is not based upon what I have been taught by men, but rather, it is based upon what I have learned by involving myself in continual study and research. It is based upon trial and error, and putting the Holy Word of God to the test. Based upon my studies, coupled with honest practical application of the Holy Word of God and my subsequent experiences and observations based upon that application, I have discovered that the Bible contains greater truth than all of the books combined that Evos say they rely upon.***JetPoint #2
Edge: Did someone give you all of the research data, backed up by credible research institutions with references, researcher's names and authors, and back up, etc., etc.?***No one "gave me all of the research data", as you put it. I had to aquire much of it by continual devotion of my time, as well as at my own expense. But all of the material you mentioned is widely available to anyone who is willing to examine it honestly and openly. Most Evos that I have encountered have never been willing to do so.***JetPoint #3
Edge: Do you hold your own side to the same standards as you do evolution?***In actuality, I hold "my side", as you put it, to a much higher standard. This is of necessity. Evolution chooses only to address those things that are perceived as being part of the natural world. As a creationist, I must address those things that pertain to both the natural and the spiritual. The bar is set much higher for creationism, and even so, it has never been able to be discounted. Denied, yes, due in part to willful ignorance. But discounted? Never, not even once. Even a few honest evolutionary scientists have been willing to admit to the possibility of a Creator as the reason for the existance of the universe. They remain evolutionists, but acknowledge, the possibility at least, of the reality that a Supreme Agency, a Creator, is due full credit for the existance of the material universe.Point #4
Edge: Could you give us the same data?***Sure I could, but I doubt Percy would allow me to actually provide such material here. Links to that information is probably the most that Percy would allow me to provide for you. You would also have to do as I have done, that being, invest much time and some money in your pursuit for the Ultimate Truth, a Truth that rests only in the Creator of all that exists, both natural and spiritual. Truth is an absolute, and the Creator is Absolute Truth.***Jet***Here are a few links to get you started on your path to that Ultimate Truth. I wish you much success.***Jet http://www.trueorigin.org/index.asp
http://evolutionlie.faithweb.com/
http://home.hkstar.com/~johnfok1/rightframe.htm#Acknowledgement
http://www.auracom.com/~gmilroy/index.htm
http://www.evidence.info/
http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/EvolutionIsNotScience_f.htm
http://evolution.htmlplanet.com/
http://www.fhu.com/findgod_book.htm
http://www.creationists.org/switch.html
http://www.thinkquest.org/library/lib/site_sum_outside.html?tname=18757&url=18757/historyofevolution.htm
http://members.aol.com/dwr51055/Creation.html
http://members.tripod.com/faith_defense/
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/index.html
http://www.biblicaldefense.org/Research_Center/Apologetics/
http://www.onlinebible.net/links.html
http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth18b.html
http://www.realworldnews.net/
http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/01-evol1.htm
http://home.primus.com.au/bonno/evolutionTEXT.htm
http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Index.htm
http://www.oldpaths.com/Archive/Lockwood/Germaine/Charles/1930/Cosmos/
http://home.att.net/~jamspsu84/ttocmain.html
http://www.unmaskingevolution.com/main.htm
http://www.genesisquest.org/worldofscience/***As with any worthy undertaking, research of all material provided is essential, followed by cross-checking and cross-referencing all of the available data. To simply accept something based on nothing other than the fact that someone actually bothered to write it down is to defeat the intended purpose of true study and research. You are on your own as to what you choose to do, or not do, with all of this information. The Ultimate Truth is out there. You only need to be willing to search for it. Limit yourself to any single arena, and you limit your potential for understanding.*** Shalom Jet------------------
As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?Prof. George Greenstei

Originally posted by Quetzal:
The following references should answer both points. You wanted scientific data — in the raw — here it is. Please note that these are only a few selected papers out of thousands on this issue. Happy reading.
I guess this answers your request, no?**Yes Quetzal, this should be of immense help. Thank you very much. I knew someone should be able to provide me with this type of information. I have already printed this list. My next dozen or more trips to the library should be very informative. Again, many thanks.*** Shalom Jet------------------
As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?Prof. George Greenstei

Originally posted by edge:
Oops! Losing credibility already, Jet. Do we have to explain to you about science again? Just because you do not accept various lines of evidence, does not mean that others are not permitted to do so. You seem to fixated on the word "proof" here. This leads me to believe that you really do not understand science.***No, but perhaps you do need to explain things to some of the Evos. Several seem to think that evolution is a "proven fact", and have stated as much. I would never expect the TOE to be "proven", because I know that it never can be. And as for your statement concerning the acceptance of "various lines of evidence", that, my friend, is a two-way street.***Jetedge: Sounds like you are parroting something you read from a creationist website...Yep, good old number 65! (Do you actually understand these arguments?). You are right: could'a, might'a, should'a...***I can only assume you were not paying very close attention as you read the post. Not surprising.***JetEdge: Actually, evolution is a theory that explains the data.***Actually, it only one theory that attempts to explain the data, and does an extremely poor job in its' attempt to do so.***Jet***It is very obvious from your post that you are a prime example of an illinformed Evo, who attempts to make a point by spouting endless drivel, offering no specific facts concerning the relative nature of the TOE while totally ignoring the countless unscientific assumptions and assertions that must be accepted in order to believe in the TOE. Talk about someone adept at parroting the mindless dogma of a bankrupt theory. You seem to have developed it into an art form. Kudos!*** Shalom Jet------------------
As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?Prof. George Greenstei

Originally posted by mark24:
Polystrate fossils have been perfectly explained by mainstream geology.***You mean "explained away", don't you. This has been, and continues to be, the common practice of Evos. When something is discovered that fully refutes the Evo position, they either ignore it completely, or give some unscientific explanation for it, or dismiss it as an abberation, or simply call it an elaborate hoax by the creationist crowd. So much for Evos being interested is true science. True science seeks the truth, regardless of where that truth leads, or what the source of that truth is. True science is all about discovering the truth. Evolutionists do not qualify to be categorized as seeking truth. They seek only to have evolution accepted, no matter the cost to the truth, no matter the cost to the reputation of true science.*** Shalom Jet------------------
As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?Prof. George Greenstei

After quite a long absense, it is refreshing to see that the typical response of the Evo diehards has not changed. "Evolution Revolution!" If nothing else, one has gotta love the chaos involved in this bankrupt theory, not to mention the diehards who are unwilling to allow their thought process to evolve along with the reality that this unscientific theory cannot evolve fast enough to keep up with the times. However, the same must be said of many of the creationists, whether YEC or OEC. Once a dogmatic position has been taken, few are willing to open their minds to new concepts, let alone the reality that Truth is an undeniable, unchangeable, and immoveable force that refuses to yield. And the beat goes on.......

Hi Sweetie,
Still a Steve Allen groupie I see! Oh well, some people are slow to accept 21st century thinking. Still love you though! Bye for now dearie!------------------
As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?Prof. George Greenstein

My most sincere apologies to anyone offended by my sardonic style, and this includes Ms. Schraf! Glad to be back, if only for the entertainment!------------------
As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?Prof. George Greenstein

Reposted from: Is It Science?A Christian (and creationist)'s condemnation of "Creation Science"
Message #42
This message is a reply to:
Message 29 by mark24, posted 06-12-2002 07:58 PM[Copy of message 42 from other thread deleted. If you'd like a reply to a post in another thread it is sufficient to request it. You have replies to your last post from your prior visit in this thread that you haven't yet replied to. --Admin][This message has been edited by Admin, 12-02-2002]

Originally posted by EvC Forum Administrator:
Copy of message 42 from other thread deleted. If you'd like a reply to a post in another thread it is sufficient to request it. You have replies to your last post from your prior visit in this thread that you haven't yet replied to. --Admin[This message has been edited by Admin, 12-02-2002]Consistancy on the part of the EvC Forum Administrator would be helpful. It was due to a previously bypassed post from said thread, (which was directed at me but not a direct reply to any of my posts), that the determination was made to copy message 42 here. Perhaps the EvC Forum Administrator should have deleted message 42 from that thread rather than from this one. At any rate, I would not have copied message 42 to this thread had the EvC Forum Administrator not suggested that I do so and had that suggestion been offered as a reply to my posts it most likely would not have been missed by me initially. Subsequently, I attempted to follow the suggestion offered and then most recently attempted to do the same. As it is felt that message 42 doesn't fit the criteria of Mooses' thread, I will now delete it from that forum. When message 42 was initially reposted here, it got little feedback from the Evo crowd. Only three responses from two individuals and neither of them seemed to offer up what I initially requested. I had hoped to get more response this time around while avoiding continual repeats of what I received before. Perhaps it would have been even better to suggest that I delete the previous copy of that post from this thread rather than its latest edition. Few people are still reading that far back in this thread and I quickly grow tired of reminding people of the post number of the original posting.Evolution versus Creationism
Is It Science?
Evolution is Not Science
Page 15
Message #225Shalom!Jet--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***Message 45 of 54
The link Moose provided to start this thread presents the opinion that Creation Science is more a discouragement to religious faith than anything else, and proposes an approach reconciling conservative Christian views with science. Either of these topics seems more than enough for a single thread, so Moose's point that the "Evolution isn't science" diversion belongs in another thread is a good one.There is, in fact, an Evolution is Not Science thread already started in the Is It Science forum. The discussion could be moved there, or a new thread could be begun. Jet, perhaps you could repost a copy of your message in that thread or in a new thread?--------------------EvC Forum Administrator***------------------
As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?Prof. George Greenstein[This message has been edited by Jet, 12-04-2002][This message has been edited by Jet, 12-04-2002]

Originally posted by Admin:
Board administration would appreciate it if could extend the same consideration to your fellow members that you expect in return.*********************Board particitpants would also appreciate honest equality from the Board administration when it comes to enforcing forum rules. From what I have observed upon entrance, (not to mention the many other creationists who have stated their objections to perceived bias on the part of the administration), the rules do not apply, or at least are not enforced as stringently upon proponents of evolution as opposed to the proponents of creation. I understand there is the attempt to make these forums as fair as possible. However, one need only read through several pages of many forums to see that the scales do indeed tip to the left in favor of evolutionists. I guess this is to be expected in an arena "created" by evolutionists. Oxymorons aside, I will endeavor to pay closer attention to posts within a given thread that I may participate in, on the slight chance that a post is directed at me apart from being a direct reply to one of my posts.ShalomJet------------------
As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?Prof. George Greenstein[This message has been edited by Jet, 12-09-2002]