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Author Topic:   Show one complete lineage in evolution
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 47 of 246 (127360)
07-24-2004 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Robert Byers
07-24-2004 5:16 PM


quote:
No horse toes are not relevant when evolutionists are asked for transitional changes between great kinds of creatures.
Did you know that you can feel but not see the two vestigial tarsal bones on either side of the large main bone on a horse's leg?
They articulate with the knee joint and are about 6-8 inches long, and they float a fraction of an inch away from the cannon bone, medially and laterally, connected only with soft tissue.
Quite often, a young horse will come up very lame because he has struck one of the so-called "splint bones" on the inside of one leg with the opposite hoof. It becomes very inflamed and painful.
Traineres will often put protective wraps or boots on the front legs to prevent such injury. In fact, if you look at my avatar picture, you will see that I have put splint boots on Crockett's front legs.
Anyway, eventually, if rested, the horse will heal itself by laying down bone to fuse the splint bone to the cannon bone, but this takes a lot of time and the horse may be quite lame initially. Sometimes, if a horse repeatedly pops splints, he will develop a lot of bone scar that irritates the tendons in the area, making the horse permenantly lame unless the bone is surgically removed.
If Equus Callibus didn't evolve from multi-toed ancestors, why would those splint bones be there?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-24-2004 04:53 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Robert Byers, posted 07-24-2004 5:16 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Robert Byers, posted 07-26-2004 3:22 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 62 of 246 (127478)
07-25-2004 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by SkepticToAll
07-25-2004 3:15 AM


Re: Still problems with evolution.
quote:
One thing i noticed about whales their tails resemble the tails of large sharks - no? I could be wrong - how could that have evolved?
Whale's and shark's tails are not similar at all.
Here is a whale's tail. Notice how it is oriented. Whales propel themselves by moving their tails up and down. Notice also that it is symetrical from side to side.
Here is a shark's tail. Notice how it is oriented. Sharks propel themselves by moving their tails side to side. Notice how it is not symmetrical from top to bottom.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-25-2004 09:26 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by SkepticToAll, posted 07-25-2004 3:15 AM SkepticToAll has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 82 of 246 (128047)
07-27-2004 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Robert Byers
07-26-2004 3:22 PM


quote:
Its about Major kinds journey into different major kinds
Please define "kind". It is not a scientific term, so I don't know what it means.
Specifically, I'd like to know how to tell the difference between various "kinds".
For instance, are bonobo Chimanzees andhumans the same "kind"?
Are my housecat and Bengal Tigers the same "kind"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Robert Byers, posted 07-26-2004 3:22 PM Robert Byers has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 83 of 246 (128048)
07-27-2004 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Robert Byers
07-26-2004 3:54 PM


Re: Missing transitionals?
quote:
The old ideas could easily be thrown out because they had no science behind them. Its all speculation or history. Not science.
So, according to you, Newton's laws were all "just speculation or history. Not science.", is that correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Robert Byers, posted 07-26-2004 3:54 PM Robert Byers has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 84 of 246 (128050)
07-27-2004 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by SkepticToAll
07-27-2004 1:16 AM


Re: Weak case so far...
There are some serious misrepresentation of Evolutionary theory in your cut n paste.
quote:
A complete series of horse fossils is not found in any one place in the world arranged in the rock strata in proper evolutionary order from bottom to top. The fossils are found in widely separated places on the earth.
Strawman. Why is this a problem? Nowhere in Evolutionary theory is it predicted that fossils from any species have to be found in one place.
quote:
b. The currently accepted sequence of fossils starts in North America, then jumps to Europe and back to America again. But there are still differing opinions on whether one of the jumps was from America to Europe or vice versa. Many different evolutionary histories for horses have been proposed.
Strawman. Again, Evolutionary theory does not predict that all members of a lineage's fossils must be found in exactly the same place. You do know that the arrangement of continents wasn't always the one we have now, don't you?
quote:
d. The first three supposed horse genera, found in rocks classified as Eocene, are named Hyracotherium, Orohippus, and Epihippus, and they are said to have evolved in that order. However, the average size of these creatures, sometimes called "old horses," decreases along the series, which is contradictory to the normal evolutionary rule,
Strawman. There is no "evolutionary rule" which states that creatures must get larger.
quote:
and they were all not larger than a fox.31 In view of their similarity, these genera could be considered to be members of an originally created biblical "kind."
Please define "kind". That is not a scientific term, so I don't know what it means.
Specifically, I would like to know how to tell the difference between "kinds".
Are Humans and Bonobo Chimpanzees the same "kind"?
Are my housecat and Bengal Tigers the same "kind"?
quote:
Between Epihippus and Mesohippus, the next genus in the horse series, there is a considerable gap.
Please explain why this is a problem for Evolution.
quote:
32 The size increases about 50 percent and the number of toes on the front feet decreases from four to three. The series of genera, Mesohippus, Miohippus, and Parahippus, sometimes called the (small) "new horses," were three-toed animals much more similar in appearance to modern horses than the previous group discussed. These, perhaps, were members of another created kind.
Well, were they a new "kind" or not? The fossils are readily available, and have been for decades.
How do you know if they are another "kind" or not?
quote:
h. In northeastern Oregon the three-toed Neohipparion is found in the same rock formation with the one-toed horse, Pliohippus.34
Strawman. Evolution is a bush, not a ladder. Evolutionary theory does not predict that a parent species must completely die out before it's daughter species can exist. It is predicted that many branched-off species will be contemporary with the parent species.
quote:
i. There is a mystery about the theory of horse evolution. It arises from the fact that the brain of little Hyracotherium was simple and smooth, as indicated by the smooth inner surface of the fossil skulls. The brain of true horse, Equus, has on its outer surface a complex pattern of folds and fissures.35 Cattle brains are quite similar and equally complex and have an almost identical pattern of fissures. Cattle and Hyracotherium supposedly evolved from a common ancestor which had a simpler pattern of fissures. Therefore, it must be assumed that parallel evolution by chance processes produced the same complex brain pattern possessed by both modern cattle and horses. Such a tale is difficult to swallow.
OK, this is just stupid.
As intelligence increases for any animal with a brain, so do the number of brain surface sulci.
To make the cattle/hyracotherium brain fold connection and extrapolate a more likely special creation is so painfully uneducated and ignorant I can hardly believe it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by SkepticToAll, posted 07-27-2004 1:16 AM SkepticToAll has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by nator, posted 07-28-2004 10:04 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 102 of 246 (128346)
07-28-2004 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by nator
07-27-2004 10:40 AM


Re: Weak case so far...
quote:
There is a mystery about the theory of horse evolution. It arises from the fact that the brain of little Hyracotherium was simple and smooth, as indicated by the smooth inner surface of the fossil skulls. The brain of true horse, Equus, has on its outer surface a complex pattern of folds and fissures.35 Cattle brains are quite similar and equally complex and have an almost identical pattern of fissures. Cattle and Hyracotherium supposedly evolved from a common ancestor which had a simpler pattern of fissures. Therefore, it must be assumed that parallel evolution by chance processes produced the same complex brain pattern possessed by both modern cattle and horses. Such a tale is difficult to swallow.
In rereading this bit, I just realized that it is even more wrong than I originally realized. Whoever wrote it really is completely ignorant of what they are trying to criticize.
There is no way to tell how many sulci (brain folds) an animal's brain has by looking at the inside of the skull.
The inside of the human skull, for example, is mostly smooth, only having a few ridges. Humans are second only to dolphins in the prepoderance of sulci on the surface of our brains.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by nator, posted 07-27-2004 10:40 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 103 of 246 (128349)
07-28-2004 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by SkepticToAll
07-27-2004 5:23 PM


Re: Transitionals
A reply to posts #84 and #102 in this thread would be much appreciated.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-28-2004 09:14 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by SkepticToAll, posted 07-27-2004 5:23 PM SkepticToAll has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 110 of 246 (128482)
07-28-2004 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by SkepticToAll
07-28-2004 8:06 PM


tally of requests for reply: 2
A reply to posts #84 and #102 in this thread would be much appreciated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by SkepticToAll, posted 07-28-2004 8:06 PM SkepticToAll has not replied

  
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