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Author Topic:   Show one complete lineage in evolution
Snikwad
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 246 (131403)
08-07-2004 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Robert Byers
08-07-2004 5:26 PM


Re: PE or not to PE
Robert Byers writes:
You did good research but you misunderstood what Darwin said and so have misunderstood why PE was a correction of an error.
What error? Both phyletic gradualists and those that subscribe to the idea of punctuated equilibrium believe in variable rate change. The only difference is that phyletic gradualists believe that speciation events occur over long periods of geologic time, whereas those that subscribe to punctuated equilibrium believe they occur over short periods of geologic time.
Mr Gould was a guest on the simpsons for a new idea not repeating evolution 101.
Gould over-hyped the punctuated equilibrium theory. It was a restatement of what Darwin had said. What Gould did was caricature the phyletic gradualists as not subscribing to the notion of variable rate change. This was not the case. Phyletic gradualists do believe in variable rate change--where they differ from those who accept punctuated equilibrium is that they believe that speciation events occur over long periods of geologic time. This does not imply the rate of change is not varied. This is why punctuated equilibrium seemed revolutionary.
RAZD writes:
The reason that it needed to be restated was because the field had come to favour steady rate gradualism more than variable rate change.
I’m going to have to disagree with you here. Based on my understanding the reason it had to be restated was because gradualism and a steady rate of change had become linked, not because scientists actually subscribed to the notion of a lack of variable rate change. I was under the impression that variable rate change had always been accepted. The problem was the inability to reconcile the connotation of the word gradualism with variable rate change. Use of the word gradualism was believed to imply a steady rate. Nowhere did Darwin imply this however. The Darwin quotation that you provided demonstrates this.

"Chance is a minor ingredient in the Darwinian recipe, but the most important ingredient is cumulative selection which is quintessentially nonrandom."
--Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Robert Byers, posted 08-07-2004 5:26 PM Robert Byers has not replied

  
Snikwad
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 246 (131406)
08-07-2004 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Coragyps
08-07-2004 7:13 PM


Re: PE or not to PE
"nothing to do with genes" !!!???
What did it have to do with, then? Getting into peoples' paint cans?
Hahah, well, sure, if you assume that Lamarck was right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Coragyps, posted 08-07-2004 7:13 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Snikwad
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 246 (131439)
08-07-2004 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by RAZD
08-07-2004 8:41 PM


Re: PE or not to PE
RAZD writes:
Sorry to disagree back at you, but some were making that link, just as some geneticists are doing today ... because it makes calculations easy and they forget that it is a base assumption for the calculations.
Ah, thanks for the correction, but would you mind providing me with a link discussing these calculations and how a steady rate is a base assumption for them?

"Chance is a minor ingredient in the Darwinian recipe, but the most important ingredient is cumulative selection which is quintessentially nonrandom."
--Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by RAZD, posted 08-07-2004 8:41 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by RAZD, posted 08-07-2004 11:15 PM Snikwad has replied

  
Snikwad
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 246 (131711)
08-08-2004 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by RAZD
08-07-2004 11:15 PM


Re: PE or not to PE
RAZD writes:
Even after radiometric information was available some of the, by then, 'institutionalized' mindset continued to prevail.
Nice. This is what I was asking about. I wasn't aware that there was an "institutionalized mindset." I thought that, despite the use of a steady rate in calculations, everyone accepted a variable rate--even the phyletic gradualists.
It's like when classical mechanics is used as opposed to relativistic physics because of convenience--i.e. the mathematics isn't nightmarish. The discrepancy between the answer obtained via classical mechanics and the one given by relativistic physics is so small for all practical purposes, it makes more sense to use the easier method. But does this necessarily mean that those using it accept the notion of absolute time? No, of course not. Does using F = ma warrant a restatement of relativistic physics? I'm guessing, "no." Similarly, I thought that geneticists used a steady rate in their calculations out of convenience, not because they didn't accept that a variable rate actually existed.
But, of course, the existence of this "institutionalized mindset" lays waste to my crass assumptions. Ah well.
my dad (PhD biol, taught at UofM and Harvard, retired) remembers being surprised, not by the punkeek theory, but that it was supposed to be something new
Yep, my former biology teacher remembers being surprised that it was being presented as something new, too.

"Chance is a minor ingredient in the Darwinian recipe, but the most important ingredient is cumulative selection which is quintessentially nonrandom."
--Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by RAZD, posted 08-07-2004 11:15 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by RAZD, posted 08-09-2004 2:21 AM Snikwad has replied

  
Snikwad
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 246 (131782)
08-09-2004 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by RAZD
08-09-2004 2:21 AM


Re: PE or not to PE
RAZD writes:
you mean scientists do not divide into camps over competing theories and tend to overstate their cases sometimes?
What is this about scientists "dividing into camps" and having "competing theories?" Whatever happened to the Evilutionist Conspiracy (TM)? They're not in collusion anymore? How sad.
personally I think everyone needs their cages rattled from time to time to see if some old assumptions need further study.
Indeed.

"Chance is a minor ingredient in the Darwinian recipe, but the most important ingredient is cumulative selection which is quintessentially nonrandom."
--Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by RAZD, posted 08-09-2004 2:21 AM RAZD has not replied

  
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