Come and get me, right wingers!

Not if all man's knowledge is worldly.That's the thing, Jason. There's a difference between one's understanding of the Bible and the Bible, itself. Knowledge about the Bible can never be anything but worldly and so, according to you, can't be used to heal spiritual issues. That's probably why B2P doesn't want the Bible used in this context; it's not better than any other form of worldly knowledge. Do you have the Holy Spirit? Can we tell if you do by the way you venerate worldly knowledge above wisdom, and worship an idol instead of God?

Thank you for your response Lam. Semantics? The Bible is untrue because of semantics? Dig deeper man. I had a college professor who said scientists make the worst historians because they never deal in context.In what context is the word slave being used here? Does our connotative picture of slaves effect how we read this passage? Was the social context the same? Did slave mean the same thing then as it does today? Was the stigma of slavery the same as it is today? What was the alternative to being a slave in that time, starvation, conscription? Does bondservant clear things up? God says we are his slaves, it that wrong? Does the New Testament help clear things up? And finally is the Bible untrue if it condones slavery?This message has been edited by Jasonb, 08-16-2004 12:00 PM

Well, today it means humans you can buy and sell as chattel.The context provided in Leviticus proves that it meant the same thing then:

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Leviticus 25:44 states, "Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you buy them from among the neighboring nations.

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See those words? "Possess"? "Buy"?I don't understand how you can use the context to imply, as you did, that the Leviticus writer meant something besides "humans you can buy and sell like chattel." It's certainly not a moral authority.

Thanks for replying. He is not claiming that he just doesn’t understand the Bible; he is claiming that it is flat out not true.

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B2P Said:
The Bible is not absolutely innerrant.

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There is a difference between saying These are hard sayings, and difficult to understand. And saying The Bible is not totally correct so let’s worship the way we see fit. That my friend is a worldly knowledge. Can the Holy Spirit give us insight into the scriptures that sin blinds us to? The Bible is not, IMO, a worldly book, it is a divinely inspired book. And we, through, the power of the Holy Spirit, can understand things spiritual. But B2P says it is merely a guide, a handbook for a moral life. This is worldly wisdom, incapable of spiritual healing. If I did not think I had the Holy Spirit, I would not attempt to give anyone advice, for fear of doing more harm than good. That is not to say that I am always right. I am still a sinner, with worldly thoughts, and often ignore guidance, and follow my own dark desires of the heart. But I pray I do God’s will.

Thanks for replying. Quick question, did you read all of my post? I gave several questions to ask when trying to understand writings in context. So OK, you answered yes to the question, Did slave mean the same thing then as it does today? Please answer the rest of my questions.In what context is the word slave being used here? Does our connotative picture of slaves effect how we read this passage? Was the social context the same? Was the stigma of slavery the same as it is today? What was the alternative to being a slave in that time, starvation, conscription? Does bondservant clear things up? God says we are his slaves, it that wrong? Does the New Testament help clear things up?This message has been edited by Jasonb, 08-16-2004 12:25 PM

No, he's claiming that knowledge of the Bible is useless in solving these spiritual matters.He believes that the reason is the Bible itself is in error. I'm showing you that, even if it's not, you still can't use the Bible to solve spiritual matters, because knowledge of the Bible will always be worldly. No, because that knowledge will still be worldly.It's not possible for a human to have knowledge that isn't worldly. The very fact that the knowledge is inside a brain makes it worldly. That doesn't matter. The Bible could have been penned in God's very hand, for all it matters - knowledge about the Bible is still worldly and useless for spiritual matters. Impossible. That knowledge would be worldly, not spiritual. Oh, I'm sure you think you have the Holy Spirit.That's not what I asked. I know that you don't have the Holy Spirit, because "by their fruits ye shall know them", and the fruits of Biblical Inerrancy have always been strife, persecution, hatred, and ignorance.

In the context of "buying and selling humans like chattel." I answered this. Almost certainly. Does that change the fact that this is a practical perscription of how a Jew might buy slaves? No. Well, now we know that slavery is immoral. Clearly that was not known at the time. Is that what you meant by "social context"? How does that matter in a book purported by you to be a timeless, ultimate moral authority? Stigma in regards to whom? Slaves or slaveholders? At any rate, what's the relevance to the Bible as a literally inerrant moral authority? In some cases, perhaps. In other cases, the alternative was life as a free person in the country of your birth.The slaves, however, didn't get to choose. That's why we call them "slaves." Another word for the same thing? That clears nothing. Slavery is wrong, so it must be. An unrelated text from a different religion? Why would that clear anything up?In what way are these questions relevant to the Bible as a literally inerrant moral authority? If anything, merely considering these questions - trying to take the Bible "in context" - means you're not treating it as a literal authority, but as human mythology that must be understood in context.If you don't believe the Bible is literally inerrant, why should B2P?

Thanks for replying. What about Solomon’s prayer for wisdom in 1 Kings 3? Is that not an example of God departing wisdom on man. And also1 Corinthians 2:4-8
and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. I do not have the Holy Spirit because I believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God? That is a new one for me. I would not presume to say if you do or do not have the Holy Spirit. But I pray that if you don’t, you will.

Using the Bible to prove the Bible? Please, Jason. Could be, who knows? All our knowledge of the Bible is worldly, and so we can't use it to make that sort of spiritual judgement. Yes, obviously. But you do presume to say if B2P does?

Think deeper? A circle is a circle is a circle is a circle is a circle. If the bible is always true about everything, why the hell didn't it say "spere-like"? According to my handy dandy Webster's New World Dictionary, a slave is a human being who is owned as property by another.The bible is absolutely untrue because it condones slavery. Why? Slavery is evil. The moment you realize just how evil slavery is, you will see that there are some things the bible condones that are as evil as genocide.Like the frog said, today's definition of slavery fits perfectly with the definition back in biblical times.Let me take this a little deeper. When some people wanted to end slavery in America, it was people like you that pointed to the bible and says god condones slavery. Just how far are you willing to go to justify your faith?The bible is a poor moral guidance. It is a poor scientific book. It can be used to justify just about every evil deed known to man. Why want to continue to have faith in it?

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The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current. For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

Good Day, I cannot defend the actions of all Christians through all time, but don’t forget that the Abolition movement in England and in the Northern US was a Christian movement. There are many writings by many theologians of the time that said as much. Also don’t forget that people who wanted to maintain slavery also often quoted scientists such as Darwin as proof. If this is your opinion then so be it.

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Think deeper? A circle is a circle is a circle is a circle is a circle. If the bible is always true about everything, why the hell didn't it say "spere-like"?

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Especially since there was a word in ancient Hebrew that means "ball", and is used in a later chapter in Isaiah.

Yes, but those christians were the ones that knew better than to take the bible literally, unlike you. I think you are refering to the social darwinism that people cooked up to justify their wickedness. At best, they were quote mining scientists.If you take the words of scientists literally, you would find that they only deal with science, not social studies. However, if you take the bible literally, you would find the worst of all evils mankind has ever done in our history. It's just not my opinion, it's a fact. It's simple!(1) Leviticus condones slavery.
(2) Leviticus is part of the bible.
(3) Slavery is evil.
(4) The bible condones evil deeds.What more do you want?

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The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current. For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

Aww, made me feel bad. . Sorry about that, I'll try to stop being so stingy in this thread.But thanks for responding. If the document's morality is not absolute, what does it matter if someone believes otherwise? A preacher who will preach slavery from Leviticus is not right just because he thinks he is. I realize that applies to me as well; that's why I'm asking on this forum. No human can know for sure. Most preachers claim they do. The difference is that I won't lie to people just so they'll listen to me. My belief in Christ is because it feels right; takes hours to explain. I know that sounds childish, but he's a moral role-model whether one believes that He's real or not. An example of his calibur is what can inspire people. If another preacher and I preach the same message from the same Bible passage, why would his be more valid just because he believes it really happened?

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

There's a possibility that God gave us the sense to know morals. But you don't need to believe in God to understand right and wrong, it's just a natural understanding. We agree that killing a stranger for no reason at all is wrong, correct?