Come and get me, right wingers!

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1.I think evolution happened, evolution is not a religion.
2.The Bible is not absolutely innerrant. Wonderful lesson book, but not historically sound in many places.

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Do you believe the Bible is really God's word?

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3.I don't believe God will send all non-Christians to hell.

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So you think the verses in the Bible that say "only by the blood of Christ you are saved" etc... are false? Well if you don't think the Bible's for real then I guess you could justify this opinion.

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4.I, as well as the whole Methodist church to my knowledge, am NOT opposed to homosexuals, non-Christians(including cultists and satanists), and people who aren't afraid to question tradition.

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I, as well as all christians to my knowledge, are not opposed to homosexuals, non-Christians, or anyone for that matter. Mind you though, that these beliefs and life-styles arent called traditions in the Bible, for instance homosexuality is labelled as sin in the Bible. It is trivial however. There are what 4-5 verses that condemn homosexuality in the Bible. I believe it is wrong to focus on these and to almost forget about the big picture. Discrimination can never be justified.

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5.Did I mention I wrestle? I'm ultimately training for NHB.(look it up in a search engine) I'm gonna be a preacher and do some of that on the side because it's fun. Got a problem with it?

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Well I'm wondering what you'll preach about dude. Well I guess you could pick pieces of the Bible to talk about and skip over some, as if you're ashamed of it....These beliefs are not biblical man.You could totally nullify this argument by saying you don't believe the Bible is God's word.I can't be a relativist. Someone has to be wrong. Some say the Bible has a subjective voice. I'm saying it has an objective voice.

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-chris

Oh yeah one more thing. I hate labels man I really do. I don't consider myself a "right-winger", whether this is a political context or not.
Remember when Jesus said "give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's, Give to God what is God's."I'm not a liberal
I'm not a conservative
me I'm just me.
I guess you can call that paraphrasing 50 cent

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-chris

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There is another possibility.

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The Bible was written by men and simply reflects the mores of the time.

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You are definitely right.A historical context is always needed. The chosen people were very recently the enslaved during the time the books where slavery is condoned are talking about. When a nation was defeated the only way the remaining people of that nation would've been spared is if they became slaves. You could consider it justice for the formally enslaved Iraelites to enslave their former captors. This type of slavery is quite a different kind of slavery from slavery as we've known it in America. The chosen people had to be delivered, it was his will.There's really nothing more to it. I was very troubled about some of the slavery verses I read, I found alot of them from evilbible.com, I spoke with people, some camp counselors, the speakers from a bible conference I went to. The New Testament definitely brings closure on the ways of old, shows that society was different, that it wasn't kill or be killed, enslave or be enslaved anymore.This message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 08-21-2004 12:01 AM

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-chris

Yeah if I responded to you then I would
look like a "right-winger".Do you consider yourself a "christian"?Was the Bible an intrical part of your faith?Could you have heard the message of Christ without it?Why do you see in the Bible to lead you to believe there has been "major tampering"?

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Only by the blood of Christ was mankind saved. His blood's been shed. We're saved. I think that should count for everybody, not just those lucky enough to pick the right road to salvation out of the 1000s of offers out there.

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That's cool man but like I said before, The Bible has an objective voice, it speaks for itself, your opinion of salvation is not the one voiced in The Bible. I've always considered this collection of books the Word of God, quite literally, not that you have to, but the basis of your faith was founded for us in those pages.

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Neither is tolerance, at least if we're including OT. According to the old testament, a good guy like you should have lots of foreign slaves and seven sexy heathen girls feeding you grapes. Please don't tag me on the details; you're intelligent enough to know what I meant.

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Show me some verses from the OT that say this.This message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 08-22-2004 06:19 PM

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One thing about the Bible is that you can find quotes within it to support nearly any imaginable position. But if you believe that GOD is a loving GOD, then those parts of the Bible that show all mankind will be saved, not just the few elite, resonate loudly.

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If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus
Christ the righteous; and he is the perfect offering for our
sins, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole
world. John 2:1-2
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Jesus is the perfect offering for the sins of the world, this verse reflects nothing else outside of interpretation.

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The Bible came long after Christianity. It is still somewhat flexible, the canon varies considerably both over time and within various churches. The is the issue of whther or not the Apocrypha and other books should be included as well. There is also a large body of material outside and in addition to the Bible. There is the BCP, various Councils, edicts and letters.

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The clearest statement of what makes a Christian was laid down by the Council of Nicea in 323AD IIRC. No where does it mention the literalist nature of the Bible.

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Even today, 2000 years later there is still no one official Bible, or even one uniform Canon for all Christian Churches.

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The OT was obviously around long before Christianity. There were many prophecies of a coming messiah for our "inequities".There are many reasons why the Apochrypha is not in the majority of Bibles today. If you want me to elaborate on why they are not inspired I will.
There are many translations for there are many ways to interpret the Hebrew.For example:
the NASB is translated word by word, the NIV is translated phrase by phrase.You're right, The Bible technically has nothing to do with being a christian, however it has lead many people to christianity and has become a foundation for christians, it has words of many early christians, and of course Jesus. I would never of heard of the Christ, or God if it wasn't for the Bible. Without these books it would have been carried through word of mouth which as you know, if just by playing a game of telephone, people recount things differently then they were originally told. Words have been exagerated, augmented and not said at all. It is much harder to do these things when words are recorded on paper.

That's the thing, it means exactly what it says, it does not contradict the "confess with your mouth" thing at all.

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Of course, that is exactly what did happen with both the OT and the NT. For centuries, millenia in the case of the OT, they were simply oral histories. They were exagerated, augmented and not said at all. In many cases, they even recount things that didn't really happen or that certainly, did not happen as described.

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This is where we disagree, you sound like a theologian I know, he describes the same history of how the Bible came to be. I disagree I think the people that wrote the Bible were inspired by God that they were writing what actually happened. But also many characters wrote what happened. I believe Moses wrote his story.This is where the story-telling theory seems to unravel:Who was there to describe what happened in the early parts of Genesis? There are only two explanations to this. Either someone made up their origins in what is Genesis and passed it on. Or God actually did this and told someone. It doesn't seem plausible that Adam or Eve would know what happened in creation before they were concieved. How revelation was passed on wouldn't make much sense either would it? Who passed on what Isaiah saw in his entire life? Maybe Isaiah wrote it.-goin to bed got practice and i gotta finish that richard clarke bookThis message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 08-22-2004 09:36 PM

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-chris

With the mention of two books your whole theory fell apart, opening a Bible before telling of its origins could help you in future discussions.

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Actually, almost all of Genesis is simply cribbed from earlier religions.

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You offer no evidence for this assumption, further more it is definitely not a detriment for pieces of the Genesis to also be in other cultures.

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Of course you are free to believe whatever you want. But the belief that it is accurate falls apart about Genesis 2.

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THe only thing that falls apart is ones faith.peace

I was just criticizing that statement for just being a statement."further more it is definitely not a detriment for pieces of the Genesis to also be in other cultures."

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peace

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Why? The Map is not the Territory. Even if the whole Bible was no more than stories told around the fire, would Christ's message be any less important?

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No, but the reality is, is that the Bible isn't stories told around the fire, maybe by viewing the Bible that way it's easier to swallow, it simply isn't so.

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peace

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Sure could with everyone going door to door with different messages about Christ.

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Do the christians that come door to door, do they carry Bibles?

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The point I was trying to get across is without the Bible Jesus would be harder to discover.
Was, until I flipped to a random page at youth group that said wives should submit to their husbands and obey them as they husbands obey God. I brought it up to a girl right next to me and she said 'well, that's the author's opinion.' I was stunned: There were AUTHORS of the Bible? I figured they were laws that were orally passed down until somebody wrote it. I knew the submitting thing was wrong, and when I realized that obviously a human being had to write it down for it to be in a book, I concluded that the Bible was not 100% correct.

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Did you also read the part of what husbands should be for their wives?

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And it's perfectly okay to kill a bunch of people cause Pharoah pissed you off(Exodus)

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How many plagues were there? God gave Pharaoh so many chances, notice how there were no fatalities until the last plague?

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And to steal somebody else's land cause a voice in your head said it was yours.(One word:Schitsophrenia!!)

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The land was theirs to go back to.

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Except it really doesn't like non-Israelis(OT).

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At that time the nations against the Israelites were nations that had no belief in God. Keep in mind that they were also enemies with God's chosen people.

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Which opinion? There were a few in the Bible.

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Glad you asked! Here's a little from Exodus 21 for starters:

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2."When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, but on the seventh he shall go out a free person without debt."

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Sounds nice, except for the first grueling six years. Don't worry kids, it gets better.

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"3.If he comes in single, he shall go out single. If he comes in married, his wife goes with him."

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I'll leave this one alone because the next one is just priceless. But just ask yourself:What if he gets married during slavery? Exodus has got it covered!
4."If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her(the wife's) master's and he(the husband) shall go out alone."

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Wonderful. A prime example of God's mercy at it's finest! Guess it sucks for the wife and gets being doomed. But who cares about women,anyway, because the husband gets to go out and hit some more!

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Oh, and read on to 21:12 for the laws concerning violence. Lotsa fun right there too!

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Hmmm... For some reason I feel I recently explained this."A historical context is always needed. The chosen people were very recently the enslaved during the time the books where slavery is condoned are talking about. When a nation was defeated the only way the remaining people of that nation would've been spared is if they became slaves. You could consider it justice for the formally enslaved Israelites to enslave their former captors. This type of slavery is quite a different kind of slavery from slavery as we've known it in America. The chosen people had to be delivered, it was his will.There's really nothing more to it. I was very troubled about some of the slavery verses I read, I found alot of them from evilbible.com, I spoke with people, some camp counselors, the speakers from a bible conference I went to. The New Testament (and Jesus alot) definitely brings closure on the ways of old, shows that society was different, that it wasn't kill or be killed, enslave or be enslaved anymore."This message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 08-24-2004 06:22 PM

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peace

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Even if the whole Bible was no more than stories told around the fire, would Christ's message be any less important?

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Uh I already replied to this blatantly, sorry if I confused you.
Let me reword what I said. The Bible just isn't "stories told around the fire", but even if it was Christ's message wouldn't be any less important.However,
by viewing the Bible that way you are not being honest.

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peace

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Can you explain what you mean by that?

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uh, I think you can figure it out?????????????????????

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Depends. I've had a couple JWs come, as well as a group of Catholics. I've also had some protestant factions come and invite me to Easter celebrations etc.

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Yeah, they carry Bibles.

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Back before modern medicine, I'd say sickness would be much worse than fire and brimstone. Kills you slowly, and there's no dodging it like you could a falling brimstone. The point being Egypt as a whole shouldn't have been punished for their stupid leader even if they follow his orders for fear of getting killed for being unpatriotic. You wouldn't like it if a terrorist started wreaking havoc in a local minimall because he hates Bush's foreign policy, right?

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The Israelites needed to be delivered. I don't question the ways of God.

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I don't buy manifest destiny. Ask a conservative, full-blooded Native American about how that works, assuming you can find one.

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Also:Finders keepers.

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It isn't manifest destiny it was their land.

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Doesn't matter. Slavery is wrong. God could've said "Israel, DONT MAKE THEM SLAVES!!!"

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Who would argue with that? I have no doubt God was allowing us to go our path, but please don't try to defend slavery as something moral. Who cares what the code was back then? God could've changed it in a heartbeat; just because he didn't interfere and stop it doesn't mean it wasn't wrong.

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dood free will, the slaves were the spared ones that werent killed in battle, it happened to the Israelites too, for as you know, a long time. The loser of the battle's choices was be killed or be a slave.There's also the chance that the enslaved nation rose up again and took over the other nation, that's why the slave wasn't allowed to take his family when he went free. Why are you stuck on this? I find your ignorance on the ways of old annoying man. It's like you want to prove the Bible wrong, and the ironic thing is without it, you wouldn't know Jesus. What knowledge would you seriously have of Jesus. Why do you condemn the books that contain the story of his life? I respect the prophets of old, the writers, "the characters", they knew Jesus more than I may ever know.

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You know, I took a look around and couldn't find it. I'd appriciate it if you could tell me where it is so I could have a look.

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Why it's just stories told around the fire. Forget about it. The message is the only important thing.Where did you get the message from?

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peace

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Oh zeus, not another hardheaded christian who likes to justify evil.

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wow
The sad thing is God needs no justification

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peace

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well no I don't get it either.
So please enlighten us.

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He said the Bible is just stories told around the fire. That assertion wasn't thought through well, see my previous posts to how his theory isn't plausible.To jar:you have no argument for that statement, go ahead make my day (eastwood), try to defend that silly statement, I know how you like to build a force field around you so your faith can never be challenged, that's not a good way to live, especially with God. You know you're never alone right?By saying that he wasn't being honest because it just isn't true.

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peace