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Author Topic:   Creation Vs. Evolution = Free will Vs. determinism
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 135 of 164 (135548)
08-20-2004 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Syamsu
08-20-2004 3:16 AM


No you won't
I don't think that a good way not to get banned is to start spamming yet another thread with your thoughts on social darwinism and the holocaust, open your own thread if you want to do that.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Syamsu, posted 08-20-2004 3:16 AM Syamsu has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 142 of 164 (135577)
08-20-2004 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Syamsu
08-20-2004 3:52 AM


Re: The duality of reality
Thats right Syamsu, the fundamental nature of the universe comes down to the holocaust. Have you ever thought that you might be slightly obsessed Syamsu?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Syamsu, posted 08-20-2004 3:52 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Syamsu, posted 08-20-2004 6:16 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 144 of 164 (135599)
08-20-2004 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Syamsu
08-20-2004 6:16 AM


you ignore the well founded basis for determinacy and indeterminacy in the reasonable, limited and practical application in science, common knowledge and religion
Not at all, I am totally in favour of both statistical and mechanistic approaches in 'reasonable, limited and practical applications', what I am against is assuming that the fact we find statistical or mechanistic approaches useful somehow means that they fundamentally represent what is actually happening.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Syamsu, posted 08-20-2004 6:16 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Syamsu, posted 08-21-2004 5:09 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 151 of 164 (135898)
08-21-2004 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Syamsu
08-21-2004 5:09 AM


So you are saying there wasn't any choice in the holocaust, because we are not allowed to assume choice. It's madness, typical mad scientist madness.
Quite how you got that from my post is beyond me. Perhaps the voices in your head once again helped you 'interpret' what I said.
TTFN,
WK
P.S. Your holocaust tripe is still off topic, please take it somewhere else!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Syamsu, posted 08-21-2004 5:09 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Syamsu, posted 08-21-2004 7:02 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 153 of 164 (135961)
08-21-2004 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Syamsu
08-21-2004 7:02 AM


It is only an innappropriate truism if you belive that we now claim to know for a fact that the universe is either deterministic or indeterministic. Since neither of these positions is unequivocally regarded as fact now, except perhaps by you, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying may well be equally a truism but it is an appropriate one as, for all you pay lip sevice to it, it is one you continually fly in the face of.
What I am saying is that the issue is unresolved, and while it remains unresolved it ill behoves you to blithely assume that it has been resolved as your whim dictates, in the favour of indeterminism, and subsequently draw possibly erroneous conclusions from that assumption.
I'm not inclined to take out discussion about the holocaust, because I'm not at all sure that people here would actually recognize choice as a fact in regards to the holocaust.
I'm sure everyone here except you would recognise the peripheral nature of a discussion of any particular historical event to the topic of the fundamental distinction between determinism and indeterminism. You might as well blame indeterminism for allowing the nazis to choose their particular course of action.
Once again you seem to think that criticising the choices or beliefs of people you identify as ascribing to a specific scientific theory has any relevance to the scientific merit of that theory. As you have been told on numerous previous occasions, it does not.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Syamsu, posted 08-21-2004 7:02 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Syamsu, posted 08-22-2004 5:07 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 156 of 164 (136067)
08-22-2004 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Syamsu
08-22-2004 5:07 AM


Unequivocal certainty seems to be unattainable when it is argued on the basis of knowing everything. It is just a philosophical mindgame, which may be resolved when science comes to an end, when we know everything. In the mean time we just assume determinacy and indeterminacy as facts, or else there are no facts in science whatsoever.
The problem with your argument is that will they are taken as operational facts for science, things that must be assumed to allow us to use science effectively, they are not required as fundamental facts. Once again you ignore the fact that indeterminism in science, with the possible exception of QM, is used to allow for the fact that there are limits to what we can effectively know about the systems we study.
As before determination is synonym for decision. It is clear by the language that in times previous it was well understood that decision and creation go together, because the beginning of the universe was said to be a determination (decision) and from this determination the universe was created. We have come to be more ignorant of creation since then, so that the connection between decision and creation is much lost.
It's the other way around of course. Klaus Fischer's book is science, what we pragmatically should accept as true, and the philosphical meandering about the fundamental nature of the universe to the point of determinacy and indeterminacy is peripheral, and has no compelling observation to support it any which way for lack of observing everything.
Well I think everybody here realises the importance of recognizing choice as true to fact, and the limits of philosophical meandering to undermine the confidence in recognizing choice and creation as true to fact. I think I have made a convincing case, that evolutionists do in fact suppress scientific, common and religious knowledge about creation, and that this surpression facillitates their promotion of atheist / materialist / social darwinist doctrine.
These three paragraphs are yet another barely coherent restating of your initial contention.
It's only because of such things like dishonesty about the links of Darwinism to Social Darwinism like Jar and Mammuthus engaged in, in this thread, that the truth is obfuscated. Or for instance your baseless insistence that indeterminacy is not a fact in evidence.
You haven't shown them to be dishonest, and I would encourage you to start a new thread if you wish to try. You have yet to show any evidence whatsoever that a premise of fundamental indeterminacy, which is required for your argument to be true, is in any way better supported scientifically than a deterministic view.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Syamsu, posted 08-22-2004 5:07 AM Syamsu has replied

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 162 of 164 (136236)
08-23-2004 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Mammuthus
08-23-2004 5:27 AM


This could have been an interesting thread in principle.
Do you mean this thread or Syamsu's atempted derailment topic hypothetical thread?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Mammuthus, posted 08-23-2004 5:27 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Mammuthus, posted 08-23-2004 6:02 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 164 of 164 (136310)
08-23-2004 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by 1.61803
08-22-2004 6:12 PM


Re: cant we all just get along.
I know by now that no topic is Syamsu proof, especially when so many of my topics are direct responses to some of Syamsu's more interesting/preposterous claims and therefore clear invitations for him to infiltrate his agenda.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by 1.61803, posted 08-22-2004 6:12 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
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