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Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Candy and games and responsibility. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
quote: Sounds a load of rubbish to me, the dotcom myth under a different name.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Why on earth do you think the free market is about doing the best for everyone? If an economic model doesn't maximise benefit for everyone, we should find a new model. I would have thought that was obvious. It's the same rationale that we use to develop laws.
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
quote: On that I totally agree - not sure what though.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: False dichotomy. You can run a business in a capitalist world, and in a profitable manner AND ALSO do so ethically with a commitment to the people who work for you and to the community that supports you. My company does, and we're world famous. So is Ben and Jerry's, so is Working Assets Long Distance, so are a lot of businesses. Like about 300 of our purveyors. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-29-2004 04:18 PM
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I can't help but notice that you didn't address my examples of the "illusion of choice".
Why not?
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
quote: not in the UK, I've never heard of you. I've heard of microsoft, McD etc - THAT's World famous.
quote: Because I missed it? Because I couldn't be bothered? because i got bored? Because I skimmed the posts and picked up the bits that caught my eye? any number of motivations? Which post was it? I'll take a look.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
A pattern is starting to emerge with you, Charles.
You do a lot of talking about "the market" in the abstract, but when we give examples of how your actions are harmful or the way you treat actual people poorly, you do not really reply. I honestly thought that Ebenezer Scrooge was a exaggerated, fictional character, but it looks like we have him right here at EvC.
quote: CF: Oh? Maybe you want to ask the guy whose time you wasted, who could have made an actual sale to someone while you picked his brain for free. and
quote: CF: The clerk has made an investment of time in you; time he could have spent making sales to someone else. So, yeah, you're beholden in the same way that you're beholden to tip the waiter. and
S: But, obviously there is a demand for "expert" service, if people do what you have obviously done; taken advantage of the training and expertise provided by one retailer, but not paying for it, and then rewarding another retailer with your money, even though the second retailer did not provide you with the service. In essence, you stole from the first company. quote: S: Come on, you're avoiding my greater point. With a business that provides expert service, the cost of that service is included in the cost of the product. You use that service but don't also buy the product, you are getting something for nothing. It is not stealing in a legal sense but it is in an ethical sense if you use the service but never intend to reward the superior service by buying from the company with better service. So, do you disagree that taking the expert advice from one company, that costs money to provide to you, but then consistently failing to support that company with your money but instead supporting another company that does not spend the money to provide expert service, will eventually put the first company out of business? How does a company stay in business when nobody buys their products? The only way they will do so is if they stop spending the money on training their employees. There will be no reason for an "expert" to work at a business like that, so, once again, a retail land full of low-wage know-nothings. and
Z: I'm truly astonished that you see no economic ramifications in the time spent by employees at a business, nor in the training and compensation of those employees. quote: S: What if your parents owned the shop. Or your best friend. Or your sister? Or you? It's all well and good to talk about "the market" as if it is some abstract entity, but "the market" is made up of people. and
CF: Well, that's the largest-growing economic sector, yes. You know all those "new jobs" Bush keeps touting? They're Walmart-scale jobs. quote: CF: And you don't think that has anything to do with the incredible expansion of these discount chains? and
quote: CF: For decent people, Charles, it is. You're supposed reward good service with your dollar. and
quote: Oh, but you DO expect favors and freebies. That is EXACTLY what you expect! You will go to the store with the expert help and get loads of "favors" and "freebies" in the form of expert advice and knowledge, that the company paid for the employee to learn, and then support some other business. What is that other than expecting something for free? and
quote: CF: But see, because I'm both the market and the labor, where people plunk their dough down changes the choices I have about where I plunk mine. +++++++++++++ OK, so here is what I wrote regarding the illusion of choice in a McCulture:
quote: What we see now is people, including you, being focused almost completely upon cost. What we have seen as a result is small, independently- and locally-owned businesses being forced out of business by large, identical chain stores which have none of the unique products, service, or character of the businsess they put out of the market. It is the illusion of choice, because every WalMart is exactly the same, and they market themselves to the middle of the road, average customer. WalMart is the only retailer left in some communities, but do they have the selection of music that the local record store used to have, or the selection of yarn and fabric the local sewing store used to have, or the seletion of furniture the local furniture store used to have? Nope. It doesn't take long for a new generation to not even be aware of what used to be available to them. They are ignorant of anything besides the cheap, mass-produced, bland, average, crap that WalMart and McDonalds sells. That is the illusion of choice, Charles. We've seen this with artisan foods hundreds of times. Industrial food production moves in and starts producing a cheese, let's say, that is much cheaper than it's hand-made counterpart that has been made for centuries but is not anywhere near as good. Pretty soon the hand-made real thing disappears, because a critical mass of people who have never even had the real thing has been reached. Are we well-served by the marketplace now, with artificial ingredient-laden cheese that tastes bland and advertises itself as "containing real milk!" being the norm and real, delectable, wholesome artisinally produced cheese has gone completely extinct? We see this happening ALL THE TIME. This is an ongoing problem all around the world. ...and you are speeding this process. I liken it to an effort to restore balance to a ecosystem that is out of whack, similar to what happened when the European rabbit was introduced to Australia. The effect was that many local native species were driven to extinction or near-extinction because that one species was so succesful because it is very aggressive, in part. The rest of us see the problem here, but you are, in effect, saying: "What's the problem? I like rabbits, and I don't need those couple of hundred other species to be around. All I want is rabbits, and I don't care what anybody else wants. What's more, I'll actively hamper the efforts of people trying to bring back other species by stealing their secrets and then going to help make more rabbits." It's very, very short term, utterly selfish thinking. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-30-2004 07:59 AM
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
quote: sounds about right.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Do you advocate tearing down the Acropolis and building a walMart there?
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
well if the greek people want to do it - who am I to say no?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
No, I am saying YOU.
Do YOU think it would be the best thing ever to tear down the Acropolis and build a WalMart? While we're at it, let's also fill in the Grand Canyon and build a WalMart, tear down the Roman Colliseum and build a WalMart, Tear down the Forbidden City and build a whole mall of WalMarts there. All of the four star restaurants in France? Don't YOU think that they should really all be McDonalds? All of those art museums should just be leveled, don't you think, to make room for more WalMarts. I mean, WalMart sells loads of art! After all, you wanted a McCulture, why not go all the way?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Oh, but you DO expect favors and freebies. That is EXACTLY what you expect! You will go to the store with the expert help and get loads of "favors" and "freebies" in the form of expert advice and knowledge, that the company paid for the employee to learn, and then support some other business. What is that other than expecting something for free?
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
No I don't "expect" I try and see what I can get.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Since it is a full-service establishment, do you or don't you expect to have your questions answered? Wouldn't you be surprised if they withheld this information to a customer, since it is part of what you are paying for when you purchase goods at that shop? Isn't the very reason you go there is because you can steal this service without paying for it? You don't actually tell the salesperson up front that you have no intention of buying anything but are just pumping them for information, do you? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-30-2004 08:56 AM
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
quote: Well if he's a good enough salesmen they would be able to convince to pay over the odds, but since that never happens... And no of course I don't tell them!
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