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Author
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Topic: Candy and games and responsibility.
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nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 76 of 94 (145964)
09-30-2004 10:18 AM
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Reply to: Message 75 by CK
09-30-2004 10:02 AM
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quote:
Well if he's a good enough salesmen they would be able to convince to pay over the odds,
Blaming the victim. You are the scammer in this situation, dishonestly taking advantage of someone doing their job in good faith. If you don't think that is wrong and immoral and unethical, then I guess you just don't know the difference between right and wrong, and don't believe in treating others the way you wish to be treated.
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but since that never happens... And no of course I don't tell them!
You are lying in order to steal something you never intended to pay for. Remind me to never hire you for a job. You might rob me blind just because you could. Do you phone up old ladies with great "investment deals" that they can take advantage of if they give you their bank account number?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 10:02 AM | | CK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 77 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 10:44 AM | | nator has replied |
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CK
Member (Idle past 4159 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: 07-04-2004
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Message 77 of 94 (145971)
09-30-2004 10:44 AM
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Reply to: Message 76 by nator
09-30-2004 10:18 AM
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quote:
If you don't think that is wrong and immoral and unethical, then I guess you just don't know the difference between right and wrong, and don't believe in treating others the way you wish to be treated.
What's wishing got to do with it? That's how I would expect any Client I deal with to act, to get the best deal possible - I often have people trying to pick my brains so they can then source services from a cheaper provider. The trick is to give them just enough, so they can see that you know what you are on about and get them to sign on the dotted line.
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Remind me to never hire you for a job. You might rob me blind just because you could.
You are suggesting that I would do something illegal, nope. Would I maximize the benefit that I would get from the firm - yep.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 76 by nator, posted 09-30-2004 10:18 AM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 78 by nator, posted 09-30-2004 11:24 AM | | CK has not replied | | | Message 79 by nator, posted 09-30-2004 11:33 AM | | CK has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 78 of 94 (145990)
09-30-2004 11:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 77 by CK
09-30-2004 10:44 AM
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quote:
You are suggesting that I would do something illegal, nope. Would I maximize the benefit that I would get from the firm - yep.
Is the only reason you wouldn't rob me blind because it is illegal? If so, you have no honor or morals or ethics. That makes you a sociopath.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 10:44 AM | | CK has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 79 of 94 (145998)
09-30-2004 11:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 77 by CK
09-30-2004 10:44 AM
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quote:
I often have people trying to pick my brains so they can then source services from a cheaper provider.
However, you are a consultant, so what is in your brain is the only product you are selling. In the retail shop you are scamming, they are selling two products; the expert knowledge they have in their brains and a physical product you can hold in your hand. Both of these are paid for by the company. If you consume that expert knowledge with no intention of paying for it and without telling them up front that this is your intention, you have stolen from the company just the same as if you had shoplifted something or taken money out of the till.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 10:44 AM | | CK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 80 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 11:51 AM | | nator has replied |
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CK
Member (Idle past 4159 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: 07-04-2004
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Message 80 of 94 (146012)
09-30-2004 11:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 79 by nator
09-30-2004 11:33 AM
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If so, you have no honor or morals or ethics. That makes you a sociopath.
LOL - You yanks make me laugh, always with the melodrama.
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If you consume that expert knowledge with no intention of paying for it and without telling them up front that this is your intention, you have stolen from the company just the same as if you had shoplifted something or taken money out of the till.
Well they better get the police to arrest me then. Oh but they can't as I haven't broken any law!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by nator, posted 09-30-2004 11:33 AM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 81 by nator, posted 09-30-2004 4:55 PM | | CK has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 81 of 94 (146181)
09-30-2004 4:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 80 by CK
09-30-2004 11:51 AM
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Is the only reason you wouldn't rob me blind because it is illegal?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 11:51 AM | | CK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 83 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 5:12 PM | | nator has replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 82 of 94 (146190)
09-30-2004 5:10 PM
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Boy, am I glad I don't know jack about economics.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November! Why? Bush is a right wing nutcase.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 84 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 5:14 PM | | coffee_addict has not replied |
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CK
Member (Idle past 4159 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: 07-04-2004
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Message 83 of 94 (146191)
09-30-2004 5:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 81 by nator
09-30-2004 4:55 PM
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it's a silly example - how do we measure the expert knowledge that I've consumed? What if I go into a shop wanting to buy something but even though the advice is good, I get a bad vibe off the salesman. That's ok because I have love in my heart. No I would not rob you. The deal has always been - try and convince me and I'll buy something - yes I have no intention of buying something, but that's the same as people who are browsing - are they wasting the guy's time when they ask some questions. One salesman actually did convince me once (when I'd had no intention of purchasing something) it was the early 1990s but it happened.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by nator, posted 09-30-2004 4:55 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 85 by nator, posted 09-30-2004 8:49 PM | | CK has not replied |
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CK
Member (Idle past 4159 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: 07-04-2004
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You know that man wants certain things and has to make choises about what he does with his limited resources? Well if you do, you know everything you ever need to know about economics.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 86 by nator, posted 09-30-2004 8:54 PM | | CK has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 85 of 94 (146312)
09-30-2004 8:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 83 by CK
09-30-2004 5:12 PM
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quote:
it's a silly example - how do we measure the expert knowledge that I've consumed?
What if I go into a shop wanting to buy something but even though the advice is good, I get a bad vibe off the salesman. That's ok because I have love in my heart.
There is a difference, ethically, and also economically, between 1)getting a knowledgeable sales pitch at a shop and then deciding not to purchase the product, and 2)going to a shop specifically to get expert advice when you know that you have no intention whatsoever of buying the product there. This second scenario is definitely a scam that costs that business money to wait on you and train that employee to be able to answer your questions and tell you the various attributes of the choices available at the shop. I agree that this is a bit of a gray area, but if there is one shop that offers expert advice, and three discount shops that offer no advice at all, expert or otherwise, then the expert service is certinly measurable; the one shop has it, the other three do not.
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No I would not rob you.
Why not? What if it was legal to do so? If an action isn't illegal, does that also mean it is ethical or moral? Remember, the only reason you initially gave for not robbing me was because it was illegal, not because it was unethical or immoral.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 5:12 PM | | CK has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 86 of 94 (146320)
09-30-2004 8:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 84 by CK
09-30-2004 5:14 PM
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quote:
You know that man wants certain things and has to make choises about what he does with his limited resources?
Well if you do, you know everything you ever need to know about economics.
You know that man wants certain things and has to make choises about what he does with his limited resources, and that the choices each person makes has effects for themselves and others both far away and in their local economy, for the environment, both in the long term and short term? Well if you do, you know everything you ever need to know about economics.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by CK, posted 09-30-2004 5:14 PM | | CK has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 87 of 94 (146448)
10-01-2004 10:19 AM
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While I haven't yet seen the documentary film "The Corporation", I know it's basic premise, and it is germaine to this topic. It is a look at the concept of corporations, and in particular views corporations as if they were people. IOW, what would the psychological profile of a typical corporation be if it was a person. Well, it would be a psychopath. Page not found | The Corporation
A LEGAL PERSON" In the mid-1800s the corporation emerged as a legal person. Imbued with a personality of pure self-interest, the next 100 years saw the corporation’s rise to dominance. The corporation created unprecedented wealth. But at what cost? The remorseless rationale of externalitiesas Milton Friedman explains: the unintended consequences of a transaction between two parties on a thirdis responsible for countless cases of illness, death, poverty, pollution, exploitation and lies. THE PATHOLOGY OF COMMERCE: CASE HISTORIES To more precisely assess the personality of the corporate person, a checklist is employed, using actual diagnostic criteria of the World Health Organization and the DSM-IV, the standard diagnostic tool of psychiatrists and psychologists. The operational principles of the corporation give it a highly anti-social personality: It is self-interested, inherently amoral, callous and deceitful; it breaches social and legal standards to get its way; it does not suffer from guilt, yet it can mimic the human qualities of empathy, caring and altruism. Four case studies, drawn from a universe of corporate activity, clearly demonstrate harm to workers, human health, animals and the biosphere. Concluding this point-by-point analysis, a disturbing diagnosis is delivered: the institutional embodiment of laissez-faire capitalism fully meets the diagnostic criteria of a psychopath.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 88 by nator, posted 10-02-2004 1:56 PM | | nator has replied | | | Message 90 by CK, posted 10-03-2004 6:49 AM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 88 of 94 (146748)
10-02-2004 1:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 87 by nator
10-01-2004 10:19 AM
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bump
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by nator, posted 10-01-2004 10:19 AM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 89 by nator, posted 10-03-2004 1:29 AM | | nator has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 89 of 94 (146921)
10-03-2004 1:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 88 by nator
10-02-2004 1:56 PM
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bump
bump
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 88 by nator, posted 10-02-2004 1:56 PM | | nator has not replied |
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CK
Member (Idle past 4159 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: 07-04-2004
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Message 90 of 94 (146957)
10-03-2004 6:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 87 by nator
10-01-2004 10:19 AM
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sounds about right - most corporations are pretty dysfunctional in lots of ways.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by nator, posted 10-01-2004 10:19 AM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 91 by nator, posted 10-03-2004 10:18 AM | | CK has replied |
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