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Author Topic:   About that Boat - Noah's Ark
tsig
Member (Idle past 2938 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 204 of 296 (168168)
12-14-2004 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Hmmm
12-07-2004 10:16 PM


Re: Too big or not too big...
So...
Too big or not too big, that is the question.
The answer is impossible.
The ark is impossible in many ways. Where did all the manpower come from to build the ark? It was a huge project requiring the labor of thousands. Where did all of the wood come from and how was the wood finished? Noah must have had an industrial-strength sawmill.
I'll stop there for now.
enjoy!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Hmmm, posted 12-07-2004 10:16 PM Hmmm has not replied

tsig
Member (Idle past 2938 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 207 of 296 (168543)
12-15-2004 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Hmmm
12-15-2004 7:35 AM


pension plan
Construction logistics doesn't discredit the ark because we have clear evidence of massive workforces and coordinated construction in the ancient Egyptians and Chinese civilizations. It might be used to cast doubt on the story, but it doesn't DISPROVE anything.
How can you get that many workers in a corrupt and depraved world? What happened to them when Noah floated away?
Back to the A,B & C's.
Is the 150m wooden vessel a structural impossibility? So far this argument has been based on a perceived limit for sailing ships around 1900. But who says these ships define the limit for a wooden hull? They might define the limit for carvel planked hulls perhaps, but this is not the only way to build a vessel.
The limit for a wooden vessel is defined by the strength of the wood used. The upper limit seems to be about 300m to 350 feet, and that is using iron reinforcements.
There are threads here at EvC that covers this point in detail.
If you use the red reply button I will get a notice of your response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Hmmm, posted 12-15-2004 7:35 AM Hmmm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Hmmm, posted 12-16-2004 5:26 AM tsig has replied

tsig
Member (Idle past 2938 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 233 of 296 (169235)
12-17-2004 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Hmmm
12-16-2004 5:26 AM


Strength of Materials
Let’s go into the backyard and set up two sawhorses about ten feet apart. Now put a 12’ two-by-four on them on it’s edge. Measure the compression stress on top and the tensile stress on the bottom of the two-by-four. Repeat using a 20’ spacing on the sawhorses and a 24’ two-by-four. You will find the stress has increased. Long before you reach 300 feet the wood will break because it lacks the tensile strength to span such distances. This lack of tensile strength is a basic characteristic of wood. Why were there no skyscrapers before iron?
{changed strengh to stress}
This message has been edited by Flying Hawk, 12-17-2004 06:52 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Hmmm, posted 12-16-2004 5:26 AM Hmmm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Hmmm, posted 12-21-2004 7:57 PM tsig has replied

tsig
Member (Idle past 2938 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 241 of 296 (171825)
12-28-2004 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Hmmm
12-21-2004 7:57 PM


Re: Strength of Materials
So your'e saying you could suspend a 300' section of douglas fir between two points?
While you are on the right track regarding scale-up, using a ship hull as a simply supported beam is several orders of magnitude more severe than the American Bureau of Shipping rules regarding the maximum design wave bending moment. This is because waves are a distributed load.
Engineers generally start with a worst case analysis. At some point the ship will be simply supported.
{changed " to '}
This message has been edited by Flying Hawk, 12-28-2004 14:24 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Hmmm, posted 12-21-2004 7:57 PM Hmmm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Hmmm, posted 12-28-2004 8:20 PM tsig has replied

tsig
Member (Idle past 2938 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 243 of 296 (181278)
01-28-2005 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Hmmm
12-21-2004 7:57 PM


Re: Strength of Materials
So with this in mind, let's run the numbers for fun...
Wood: Douglas Fir: Density approx 500 kg/m3
At Ark scale (scale=1), and using cubit of 0.5m,
A solid timber lump weighs 28125 tonnes, giving simply supported bending moment of 5.168e9 Nm. With a section modulus of b*d^2/6, you get Stress = 5.168e9/937.5 = 5.5e6Pa = 5.5MPa (800psi)
Being well short of the 85MPa MOR (maximum failure), we could take it further (without safety factor applied) like this...
To get bending stress of 85PMa, scale=15.4, Length of block 2313m, breadth 385m, height 231m, mass 103 million tonnes .... This is an absurd scale - far bigger than anything afloat today, and equivalent to a 2.3km (1.4 mile) long bridge!
You lost me at Ark scale. I asked you to actually measure something,the stress in both sides of the board, then you could test the compression strength and the tensile strength of the wood, then measure the stress as the length increases. I have some tension transduscers I can send you for the experiment.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2938 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 244 of 296 (181282)
01-28-2005 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Hmmm
12-28-2004 8:20 PM


Re: Strength of Materials
How about if we put a 300' length of wood in a wave pool, then measure the result. Probably cant' really replicate worldwide waves I suspect with that much reach they would be very high.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2938 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 249 of 296 (182373)
02-01-2005 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Bonobojones
01-31-2005 9:02 PM


Testing
I see a lot of numbers being tossed about about hull bending and such, but they do not seem to be used by anyone here who has actually built a wooden boat or been involved in designing one.I have been messing about in boats for the last 40 of my 52 years, and working in design and construction of vessels since '88, so I have some small knowledge of the topic.
The ancient Greeks and Romans built some nice boats, as did the Egyptians, but we have yet to find anything the size the ark is supposed to have been. 19th century ship builders discovered that a large vessel HAD to be reinforced with metal. Bronze floors, metal disgonals, etc. This is never shown in ancient ship building.
Let's just touch upon the backbone. Just the sheer size of the molding and siding of such a timber would have required a huge tree. It could not have been laminated due to the lack of any sort of structural adhesive. To get the length required would have involved multiple scarph joins, secured with, most likely trunnels, as archaeological evidence suggests from contemporary sources.
Any hull, wood, glass or steel, works in a seaway. All the forces are directed to the weakest part of the whole. This is why boats often leak at the deck joints and why deck joints and cabin/deck joints fail, often with catastrophic results under severe condidtions. (and the Flood would have been severe, due to the enormous fetch.)She would have worked so much, her seams would open to the sea and no family of 8 could bail her fast enough even with modern dewatering devices.
The Ark would have been totally at the mercy of the seas, without directional control or any way to provide thrust to keep her from broaching.
In short, I can't see it happening. Besides the fact that there is no evidence on the earth of a world wide Delude.
Great post. I offered Humm a method of testing the stresses involved, it's similar to one we did in S of M class.

This message is a reply to:
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