Vestiges for Peter B.

Originally posted by compmage:I happen to fully agree with John's article. Maturity is the deciding factor and it's a state of mind, not a number.

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I also have a friend who was found guilty of stat rape. The judge said he would have thrown the case out if the law permitted. Unfortuantely she was 6 weeks underage and her parents had layed charges, legally he was guilty. He did get the minimum though (a fine), but the record stays with him for live.There is a big difference between the age of majority (Adult responsibility) and the age of consent. Are you going to allow the average 14 year old to drive, vote, drink, or smoke as well just because some of them may act more mature then the rest? Or is it just that he wanted to have sex with little girls and not get in trouble for it? John made a very poor choice of titles "When ought the cops let me bonk her?" and this shows what his true intents are.Underage is underage even if it is by one day.Incidently the age of majority in Canada is 19 and I think, I'm not sure, but the age of concent is 14. Though, there is some talk of rising it to 16 again.[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-12-2002]

Originally posted by John:Irrelevant.

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Originally posted by nos482:

There is a big difference between the age of majority (Adult responsibility) and the age of consent. Are you going to allow the average 14 year old to drive, vote, drink, or smoke just because some of them may act more mature then the rest?

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I never said anything about the average 14 year old. My point (and John's) is that assigning an age is arbitrairy. However, I understand that given something like drinking or smoking, the person behind the counter often does not know if the child is or isn't mature enough to make an informed choice. I don't think there is an easy solution that is completely fair.

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Originally posted by nos482:

Underage is underage even if it is by one day.

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Legally yes, but as a person are you really significantly different today than what you were yesterday?

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Originally posted by nos482:

Incidently the age of majority in Canada is 19 and I think, I'm not sure, but the age of concent is 14. Though, there is some talk of rising it to 16 again.

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In South Africa it is 16 for concent. You may drink, smoke and drive at 18, but can't sing a legal document before 21. This just shows exactly how arbitrairy it really is.------------------
compmage

Originally posted by compmage:I never said anything about the average 14 year old. My point (and John's) is that assigning an age is arbitrairy. However, I understand that given something like drinking or smoking, the person behind the counter often does not know if the child is or isn't mature enough to make an informed choice. I don't think there is an easy solution that is completely fair.There has to be a line drawn somewhere. It is not like it was in the past when it was important to reproduce as soon as one was able to. Having a higher age of consent is also a sound means of population control as well.Legally yes, but as a person are you really significantly different today than what you were yesterday?

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In South Africa it is 16 for concent. You may drink, smoke and drive at 18, but can't sing a legal document before 21. This just shows exactly how arbitrairy it really is.Each culture has its own standards and tries to adhere to them.BTW, how does one "sign" a legal document? Also, maybe you should re-read my previous reply. I was editing it while you were replying to it.[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-12-2002]

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Originally posted by nos482:

There has to be a line drawn somewhere. It is not like it was in the past when it was important to reproduce as soon as one was able to. Having a higher age of consent is also a sound means of population control as well.

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Yes the line has to be drawn. However, it might be better if age was not used as a criteria. An option (though maybe not very praticle) could work along the lines of a drivers licence (excluding the age requirement). Pass the test and you are considered 'adult'.

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Originally posted by nos482:

Each culture has its own standards and tries to adhere to them.

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Yes, I just think that the standards are arbitrairy. Age is not a good indicator of maturity.

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Originally posted by nos482:

BTW, how does one "sign" a legal document?

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Signing it is pretty easy, singing it is the hard part

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Originally posted by nos482:
Also, maybe you should re-read my previous reply. I was editing it while you were replying to it.

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Or is it just that he wanted to have sex with little girls and not get in trouble for it? John made a very poor choice of titles "When ought the cops let me bonk her?" and this shows what his true intents are.

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Poor choice of title? Sure, although it is a little funny in a sick sort of way. I don't think it is enough to label him though.------------------
compmage

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Originally posted by nos482:
Many of the early deities were female. I can understand why you wouldn't want to think that this were possible. You come from a chauvinistic culture.

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Hi nos. I agree that there were a lot of female deities - most of the early creation myths we can trace enshrined the female principle as the creator (makes sense, no?). This also translated to agriculture, husbandry, etc. Sumer, the Aztecs, etc, almost invariably used female deities in these roles. However, I would say that you might have a tough case showing correlation between having a bunch of female deities - even creators - and having a matriarchal society. Most of the early "civilizations" (i.e., from which we have something resembling written records - the Mesoamerican cultures, Sumer, Egypt, the pre-Babylonian chariot cultures, etc) all were (as near as we can tell) patriarchal societies.Do you have any archeological references indicating that there is a correlation between polytheists having some female deities and the type of society?

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Even in the animal kingdom females are mostly in charge. I.E. Insects, many of the big cats, Elephants, etc...

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I'm not sure you can state this. Haplodiploid insects like bees and wasps with a strong caste system could, I suppose, be considered "female dominant", in the sense that all of the non-reproductives (i.e., everything except the queen and the male drones) are genetically "female". This doesn't mean that "females are in charge" of anything. Nor are males in this case. As to the big cats, you'll need to provide a reference. The only species that come to mind are lion (in which males compete), and leopards (where you're dealing with single motherhood). Are there any Felidae where the females compete for males (one indicator of female dominance/matriarchy)?You can make a case that the female investment in reproduction is substantially higher in most sexually reproducing organisms than is the male's. However, whether that equates to "being in charge" is a whole 'nother question.I'd appreciate any references you could provide on this.WRT: The antiquity of wicca - I have little knowledge of the subject. Do you have any info or references tending to show a 20,000+ year old religion of any kind? Let alone wicca (which I thought stemmed from worship of Diana - another fertility goddess, of which there are quite a number as I mentioned). Certainly no question the Church spent an inordinate amount of effort attempting (fairly successfully) to extirpate ALL of the old religions - including wicca. They spent nearly as much time extirpating any heresies within their own ranks (think Mithraism or the flagelantes).

[b]Originally posted by compmage:/bYes the line has to be drawn. However, it might be better if age was not used as a criteria. An option (though maybe not very praticle) could work along the lines of a drivers licence (excluding the age requirement). Pass the test and you are considered 'adult'.What happens if a smart preteen takes this test and passes it? Are they to be consider an adult as well? Would you want someone that young and physically weak to be driving around?Yes, I just think that the standards are arbitrairy. Age is not a good indicator of maturity.For most it is a good indicator. There is much to be said for experience.Signing it is pretty easy, singing it is the hard part Gee, I had corrected your spelling without realizing it. Poor choice of title? Sure, although it is a little funny in a sick sort of way.Exactly.I don't think it is enough to label him though.He labeled himself.

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Originally posted by nos482:

What happens if a smart preteen takes this test and passes it? Are they to be consider an adult as well? Would you want someone that young and physically weak to be driving around?

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I would hope that any such tests would be design to avoid situations like this. Afterall, the whole purpose of any such test would be to determine if a person is mature/responsible/(any other requirement) enough. I am not, and was not, saying that if you are mature you should be allowed to drive. Just as age is not always a good indicator of maturity, so maturity is not a good indicator of driving ability.

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Originally posted by nos482:

For most it is a good indicator. There is much to be said for experience.

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And experiance is gained by living, not being alive (if you understand what I am getting at).

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Originally posted by nos482:

He labeled himself.

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Excuse me? I say that one comment is not enough to label him, and your reply boils down to "The comment labels him"?------------------
compmage

Originally posted by Quetzal:Hi nos. I agree that there were a lot of female deities - most of the early creation myths we can trace enshrined the female principle as the creator (makes sense, no?). This also translated to agriculture, husbandry, etc. Sumer, the Aztecs, etc, almost invariably used female deities in these roles. However, I would say that you might have a tough case showing correlation between having a bunch of female deities - even creators - and having a matriarchal society. Most of the early "civilizations" (i.e., from which we have something resembling written records - the Mesoamerican cultures, Sumer, Egypt, the pre-Babylonian chariot cultures, etc) all were (as near as we can tell) patriarchal societies.You are meantioning mostly recent cultures in comparison. It most likely was nt too long after the begining of the agricultural revolution with loose nit tribes instead of any real close civilization.Do you have any archeological references indicating that there is a correlation between polytheists having some female deities and the type of society?I'm basing this on several documentaries I had watched.WRT: The antiquity of wicca - I have little knowledge of the subject. Do you have any info or references tending to show a 20,000+ year old religion of any kind? Let alone wicca (which I thought stemmed from worship of Diana - another fertility goddess, of which there are quite a number as I mentioned). Certainly no question the Church spent an inordinate amount of effort attempting (fairly successfully) to extirpate ALL of the old religions - including wicca. They spent nearly as much time extirpating any heresies within their own ranks (think Mithraism or the flagelantes).I had a very good reference on the history of ancient Wicca from when I use to surf the BBS networks (Before the Internet became very popular and cheap to access), but I can't find the link to it anymore.[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-12-2002]

I am sure that John's choice of title for his essay on the age of consent is one that he chose to catch people's eye and make them read it, althouh I think it probably attracts many more males than females. Most women I know would automatically skip over it because it is immediately repugnant and implies writing that is probably going to be distasteful to women, true or not. I know I did just that when I went to his website for the first time.Oh, and John, I have to say that the picture of your demon/hot chick is the kind of thing sold at gaming conventions that geeky computer nerds who can't get a date have hanging in their bedrooms. Not horribly offensive to me, but still pretty cartoonish and the kind of thing that I tend to think appeals to men who still have um, teenage-type sex fantasies.Sorry.As for the age of consent stuff...http://www.darkness2light.org/generic.jhtml?pid=74"Teen Pregnancy and Child Sexual AbuseA number of studies have documented the connections between child sexual exploitation/abuse and teen pregnancy. Data from the National Survey of Children indicate that about 18 percent of women 17 and younger who had intercourse had been forced to do so at least once (Nonvoluntary Sexual Activity Among Adolescents, 21 Family Planning Perspectives 110, 1989). A 1992 report of a Washington state study of 535 teen mothers revealed that the first pregnancies of 62 percent of the participants were preceded by experiences of molestation, rape, or attempted rape. The mean age of their offenders was 27.4 years ("Sexual Abuse as a Factor in Adolescent Pregnancy and Child Maltreatment," 24(1) Family Planning Perspectives 4, Jan./Feb. 1992). A 1986 study of 445 teen mothers in Chicago reported that 60 percent claimed they had been forced to have an unwanted sexual experience, with a mean age for the first incidence of abuse being 11 ("The Prevalence of Coercive Sexual Experiences Among Teenage Mothers," Journal of Interpersonal Violence 4:204 (1989). The Alan Guttmacher Institute reports that over 40 percent of mothers aged 15-17 had sexual partners three to five years older; almost one in five had partners six or more years older. With teen mothers in the 15-17 age range, 49.2 percent of the fathers were between ages 20 and 29 (Family Planning Perspectives, July/August 1995). The National Center for Health Statistics reported that based on 1991 data, almost 70 percent of babies born to teenage mothers were fathered by men 20 years of age or older (Advance Report of Final Natality Statistics, 1991. Monthly Vital Statistics Report, vol. 42, no. 3, Supplement 9. National Center for Health Statistics, Sept. 1993). A 1990 study of births to California teens reported that the younger the adolescent mother, the greater the age gap with her male partner. For example, among mothers aged 11- 12, the average age of the fathers was nearly 10 years older (California Resident Live Births, 1990, by Age of Father, by Age of Mother, California Vital Statistics Section, Department of Heath Services, 1992). The Bureau of Justice Statistics reported in 1994 that in the 12 states with sufficient information to distinguish juvenile from adult rape victims, the majority (51 percent) of female rape victims were under age 18, more than twice their representation in the nation's population. In the three states that kept data on relationships between victims and offenders in rape cases with victims ages 12-17, a full 20 percent of perpetrators were identified as family members, while 65 percent were acquaintances or "friends" of the child victim (Child Rape Victims, 1992, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, June 1994)."[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-12-2002]

Originally posted by compmage:I would hope that any such tests would be design to avoid situations like this. Afterall, the whole purpose of any such test would be to determine if a person is mature/responsible/(any other requirement) enough. I am not, and was not, saying that if you are mature you should be allowed to drive. Just as age is not always a good indicator of maturity, so maturity is not a good indicator of driving ability.But passing the test is suppose to be the indicator of being mature enough. There are examples of pre-teens going to university as well.As I had said this is not the past where all a person had to do to be considered an adult was to pass some rite of passage.And experiance is gained by living, not being alive (if you understand what I am getting at).And how much experience can a child gain, especially for something as important as sex?

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Originally posted by nos482:

But passing the test is suppose to be the indicator of being mature enough. There are examples of pre-teens going to university as well.

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Ah, I think I see were we are missing each other. I am not speaking of a single test that would suddenly allow you to partake in all things 'adult', but rather different tests for different situations. This is also why I said that while this might be an option it is not terribly practicle.

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Originally posted by nos482:

As I had said this is not the past where all a person had to do to be considered an adult was to pass some rite of passage.

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No it isn't. But how is it better to say, "You are now 16 and therefore adult" compared to "You are now 16 and if you pass this test you are an adult"? Forgetting for the moment that many of the rites of passage included questionable practises.

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Originally posted by nos482:

And how much experience can a child gain, especially for something as important as sex?

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How would a person that is 14 with no experiance be different from a person that is 16, given a similar level of maturity? How is an inexperianced, immature 18 year old any better able to make an informed choice than an inexperianced, mature 16 year old?------------------
compmage

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Originally posted by nos482:
Originally posted by John:

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Irrelevant.

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Wow.... witty....Why not actually respond? This is a debate forum.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

Hi Schraf,

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
Oh, and John, I have to say that the picture of your demon/hot chick is the kind of thing sold at gaming conventions that geeky computer nerds who can't get a date have hanging in their bedrooms. Not horribly offensive to me, but still pretty cartoonish and the kind of thing that I tend to think appeals to men who still have um, teenage-type sex fantasies.

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I have no problem with that actually. I realize the stupidity of it. I've learned not to take myself too seriously. I can get very arrogant, so I tone myself down with cheesie stuff.

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As for the age of consent stuff...

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Several of the items you posted involved rape-- forced sex not statutory rape. Rape ranks with murder in my book and I support vicious punishments for it. I don't understand the inclusion of this material. I haven't written a treatise in support of forced sex. The intent is not to legalize or encourage predation but to disconnect maturity from physical age.Teen pregnancy is a real problem, but not one tied to the age of consent. Consent, in giving some power to teen girls, might actually help curb teen pregnancy. Just a thought. It seems that, within limits, the more you treat kids/teens like adults, the more they act like adults.Nos posted something to the effect that a high age of consent serves as a form of birth control. This is essentially what exists now and it hasn't worked so far has it?I am confused as to exactly what your position is on this.Take care.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

Originally posted by compmage:Ah, I think I see were we are missing each other. I am not speaking of a single test that would suddenly allow you to partake in all things 'adult', but rather different tests for different situations. This is also why I said that while this might be an option it is not terribly practicle.We already have something like that. That is why we only allow a certain level of responsibility for certain ages.No it isn't. But how is it better to say, "You are now 16 and therefore adult" compared to "You are now 16 and if you pass this test you are an adult"? Forgetting for the moment that many of the rites of passage included questionable practises.We don't say you're 16 and you're now an adult. What we say is that you're now 16 and have reached a certain level of experience to be allowed to do this thing.How would a person that is 14 with no experiance be different from a person that is 16, given a similar level of maturity?Two years extra experience to work with.How is an inexperianced, immature 18 year old any better able to make an informed choice than an inexperianced, mature 16 year old?If one hasn't learn responsibility by age 18 than it is too late. My mother use to call it idiot hill (She had 5 sons, I'm number 5, and 1 daughter (#6)) and she said that if they hadn't gotten over it by then it was too late. BTW, before the age of First Maturity (Mid 20's) a person doesn't actually age, it is more accurate to say that they have so many years of growth instead. If you continued to grow you would never age. Aging is dying.