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Author Topic:   Evolution Must Happen, it is logical
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 22 of 60 (176279)
01-12-2005 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by TheLiteralist
01-12-2005 2:39 AM


Re: Deleting posts
I hope you will; now I'm insatiably curious what your questions were.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-12-2005 2:39 AM TheLiteralist has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 39 of 60 (179531)
01-22-2005 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by daaaaaBEAR
01-21-2005 7:15 PM


Evolution HAS to happen for those that can't accept creation by God. It's that simple.
See, the funny thing is, evolution was developed by a lot of people who believed in creation by God. So something in your post doesn't add up. What I think it is is that you have this idea that atheism and evolution are the same; which is a funny thing to say when the majority of theists also believe in evolution.
Where are all the transitional species?
Exactly where we would expect to find them - fossilized in the ground, and living on the surface of the earth.
Being wrong is what humans are best at especially in light of God's infinite wisdom and it seems me that this debate between creation and evolution is futile because it will forever be an argument until scientists learn to drop their theories and have some faith in an eternal, loving and redeeming God.
They can't have both, according to you? Which is funny because a majority of American scientists do have both theory and faith in the God you describe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by daaaaaBEAR, posted 01-21-2005 7:15 PM daaaaaBEAR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by daaaaaBEAR, posted 01-22-2005 2:28 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 42 of 60 (179627)
01-22-2005 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by daaaaaBEAR
01-22-2005 2:28 AM


If this view of evolution is true, the fossil record should produce an enormous number of transitional forms.
There are. In fact, every single organism that has both parents and offspring is a transitional form.
What if none are ever found.
But they have been found. Many have been found. For instance:
quote:
Palaechthon, Purgatorius
Cantius
Pelycodus & related species
Amphipithecus, Pondaungia
Propliopithecus, Aegyptopithecus
Proconsul africanus
Australopithecus afarensis
Cimolestes incisus & Cimolestes cerberoides
Paroodectes, Vulpavus
Hesperocyon
Ursavus elmensis
Potamotherium
Pachycynodon
Dinictis
I could go on and on but you wouldn't be familiar with the species I'm referring to, and all I'm going is cutting and pasting from
Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ
I don't know where you got this idea that there are no transitional fossils.
If modern-day transitional species are present would imply that all things will evolve further, including humans.
Which is certainly true. Everything continues to evolve. There are many living transitional species, like amphibians, or even the hippopotamus, clearly in a state of transition between land and water life.

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 Message 40 by daaaaaBEAR, posted 01-22-2005 2:28 AM daaaaaBEAR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by daaaaaBEAR, posted 01-22-2005 1:13 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 44 by MangyTiger, posted 01-22-2005 1:30 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 45 of 60 (179679)
01-22-2005 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by daaaaaBEAR
01-22-2005 1:13 PM


couldn't a hippopotamus be specifically a land/water mammal instead of a transitional species..
The fossil history of the hippopotamus informs us that it used to be entirely landbound, like its close relative, the pig.
If your logic is true then amphibians will eventually become land-dwelling lizards and lose the abliity for life in the water.
Which is exactly what some of them did; hence, we have lizards.
does this happen through mutation?
It happens through evolution, which is mutation and selection put together.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 46 of 60 (179680)
01-22-2005 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by MangyTiger
01-22-2005 1:30 PM


Since evolution is undirected can we really say something is clearly in a state of transition
All species are in transition, always. Even in a population that is completely static selection-wise, genetic drift will have shaping effects on the population. All species are transitional; they the transitionals between their parents and their offspring.
reverse "direction" and end up going back to being fully aquatic or terrestial
That would still be a transition, don't you think?
Aren't we limited to saying it is in a state where it could potentially transition from being aquatic to terrestial or vice versa ? If I'm wrong then why - what am I missing ?
For certain we can say that the hippo is a transition between the hippos of the past and the hippos of the future. When we say that it's a transition between terrestrial and aquatic forms, we're making a prediction about where it appears to be heading in the future. You could certainly be right that it could revert to terrestrialism, or maintain as a sort of land/water half-assed hybrid. It would still be a transitional between its parents and its offspring.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by MangyTiger, posted 01-22-2005 1:30 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by MangyTiger, posted 01-23-2005 8:47 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 48 of 60 (179916)
01-23-2005 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by MangyTiger
01-23-2005 8:47 AM


It was just your original post seemed to suggest we knew for certain where it was headed whereas all we can really say it is a transitional between its parents and offspring - or more generally the future and past of the species.
I appreciate the question. Like I said we make predictions about hippos based on its behavior and evolutionary history, but they aren't, of course, for certain. But thanks for the chance to clarify that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by MangyTiger, posted 01-23-2005 8:47 AM MangyTiger has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 50 of 60 (181494)
01-28-2005 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jt
01-28-2005 6:37 PM


it is surprising that many types of organisms are not extinct because of the gradual decrease of fitness caused by an accumulation of harmful mutations.
Many types of organisms are extinct, possibly for the reason you suggest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jt, posted 01-28-2005 6:37 PM jt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jt, posted 01-30-2005 6:43 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 52 of 60 (181925)
01-30-2005 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jt
01-30-2005 6:43 PM


But wait - whose side are you on?
Same side as you, I hope - the side with the most accurate model.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jt, posted 01-30-2005 6:43 PM jt has replied

Replies to this message:
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