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Author
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Topic: Is Genesis to be taken literally Part II
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 4 of 105 (182569)
02-02-2005 12:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by AdminBrian
02-02-2005 4:48 AM
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While there is nothing in Genesis that specifically says there was no death before the "Fall", it does strongly imply that there WAS death before the "Fall". In fact, the reason that GOD chased Adam and (St)Eve out of the Garden of Eden was not because they disobeyed him and ate from the Tree of Knowledge, but from the fear that they would eat from the Tree of Life. Terry's claim simply does not stand up to even a cursory examination of Genesis. If there was no death then there would be no need for the Tree of Life nor would GOD have feared them eating from it. Genesis 3:22-24
22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24: So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by AdminBrian, posted 02-02-2005 4:48 AM | | AdminBrian has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 6 of 105 (184741)
02-12-2005 5:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by moolmogo
02-12-2005 2:31 PM
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Because that god in the Bible says so. I included the passage in my post. Genesis 3:22-24
22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24: So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. So it was nothing to do with hiding, or eating from the Tree of Knowledge or disobeying GOD that got Adam chased out of the Garden of Eden but rather the fear that they would eat from the Tree of Life and live forever. It's interesting but there is no mention that Eve got tossed out as well, nor is there any indication that any of the animals or other critters got tossed out. There's not even any indication that there was not continual coming and going into the Garden of Eden continuing right down to today.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by moolmogo, posted 02-12-2005 2:31 PM | | moolmogo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 7 by moolmogo, posted 02-12-2005 5:57 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 8 of 105 (184745)
02-12-2005 6:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 7 by moolmogo
02-12-2005 5:57 PM
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No, I said that GOD feared that they would eat from the Tree of Life. It was GOD's fear that got Adam chased out of the Garden initially. TTBOMK there is nothing that shows or implies that they didn't go back into the Garden of Eden or even have the kids while in the Garden.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by moolmogo, posted 02-12-2005 5:57 PM | | moolmogo has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 10 of 105 (184753)
02-12-2005 6:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 9 by Nighttrain
02-12-2005 6:28 PM
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So the Garden of Eden is still there somewhere in the Middle East? Well, kinda. The Garden of Eden is the land bounded by four great rivers. We know about two, the Tigres and Euphrates but the other two are somewhat vague and currently undetermined. But if we look at the land bound by the two known rivers it gives us two definite places to look. We could start along the Tigris and look east to the Euphrates or we could say it was meant to start along the Tigris and look west towards the Euphrates. I'm pretty sure that the Garden of Eden would be found in one of those two locations.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by Nighttrain, posted 02-12-2005 6:28 PM | | Nighttrain has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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I think Ronnie was only looking West from the Tigris. He never explored all of the direction going East. 
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by Nighttrain, posted 02-13-2005 1:14 AM | | Nighttrain has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 16 of 105 (187221)
02-21-2005 1:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 15 by jjburklo
02-21-2005 1:17 PM
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A few dumb questions.
Interesting comments. If there was no death would there be any purpose for a Tree of Life?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 1:17 PM | | jjburklo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 19 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 4:45 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 22 of 105 (187311)
02-21-2005 7:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 19 by jjburklo
02-21-2005 4:45 PM
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Re: A few dumb questions.
jjburklo writes: quote:
Interesting comments.
If there was no death would there be any purpose for a Tree of Life?
Is there a clear purpose if there was death? This point is irrelevant to the matter at hand. Certainly it had a clear purpose if there was death, to provide immortality. In fact that is the ONLY way it would have any purpose.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 4:45 PM | | jjburklo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 23 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 7:52 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 25 of 105 (187322)
02-21-2005 8:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 23 by jjburklo
02-21-2005 7:52 PM
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Re: A few dumb questions.
Actually, IMHO it is the creative plot device in the storyline to make sending Adam out of the Garden plausible. It's the only thing used in the story to justify kicking him out.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 7:52 PM | | jjburklo has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 44 of 105 (197294)
04-06-2005 4:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 43 by Jor-el
04-06-2005 3:56 PM
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Non-Literal does not mean Non-Belief!
There is a difference between saying that Genesis is not to be read literally and unbelief. That is why almost every Christian Church does not consider Genesis as a literal truth. As a believer and Christian I can honestly say that even a quick look at the books of Genesis show they are a compilation of many different tales and in many, many places the tales are mutually exclusive. If Genesis 1 is literally true, then Genesis 2 is untrue. If Genesis 2 is literally true then Genesis 1 is false. This trend continues throughout the book. If the first flood story is accurate (and they are even more mixed up than the creation myths) then the second is untrue. If the second is true then the first is untrue. Reading Genesis or any other book in the Bible in a non-literal fashion does not mean non-belief. It does not challenge Christianity or weaken in anyway the message. In fact it strengthens belief because there is no need for the mental gymnastics and dishonesty that a literal reading requires.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by Jor-el, posted 04-06-2005 3:56 PM | | Jor-el has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 48 of 105 (197334)
04-06-2005 7:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 47 by Jor-el
04-06-2005 6:57 PM
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For ex. Jesus died on a cross and shed his blood so that through his sacrifice we can be forgiven our sins and be saved. If there was actually no fall from grace then what he did has no significance since there was never any fall or transgresion. This is the singlemost important cornerstone of christianity. If we reject it we cannot be called or call ourselves christian. Sure we can.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by Jor-el, posted 04-06-2005 6:57 PM | | Jor-el has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 49 by Jor-el, posted 04-06-2005 7:50 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 50 of 105 (197339)
04-06-2005 7:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by Jor-el
04-06-2005 7:50 PM
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well, I'm a Christian ...
and I don't believe there was ever a fall from grace, original sin or any indication of it in Genesis.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by Jor-el, posted 04-06-2005 7:50 PM | | Jor-el has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 53 by Jor-el, posted 04-07-2005 1:01 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 64 of 105 (197487)
04-07-2005 2:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 53 by Jor-el
04-07-2005 1:01 PM
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Re: well, I'm a Christian ...
You are free to believe that if you want. The other monotheistic faiths have that belief. Since christianity in this case doesn't share this belief with you in general, that leaves us with the my first point in that without this belief as a cornerstone in the christian faith one cannot call themselves christian. But most Christian churches believe just as I do. Original sin has been discarded by almost every Christian Church for hundreds of years. They agree that the story in Genesis is allegorical and instructive, not literal. Are you saying that the Anglican Communion and the Roman Catholic Church are not Christian?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by Jor-el, posted 04-07-2005 1:01 PM | | Jor-el has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 68 by Jor-el, posted 04-07-2005 4:29 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 65 of 105 (197492)
04-07-2005 3:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 55 by IANAT
04-07-2005 1:39 PM
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Re: Is "Christian" a "kind" or a "species"?
It sounds like with your loose meanings that you could simultaneously be Christian and Muslim at the same time. Not at all. By definition a Christian believes in Jesus as GOD, something more than just a prophet. But, and there is always that but ... I do not limit GOD to only speaking to one people in one way. As a Christian I can appreciate and understand the Islamic point of view. I can believe that Muhammad was a prophet, sent by GOD to carry a message to a people. The GOD is still the same GOD, the medium is different as are the methods. The message though is still the same, Love GOD and love others as you love yourself. The two religions are not antagonistic in nature although members are unique to one or the other. Consider this comment from Muhammad :
This is a message written by Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, far and near, we are behind them. Verily, I defend them by myself, the servants, the helpers, and my followers, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be changed from their jobs, nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they (Christians) are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, this is not to take place without her own wish. She is not to be prevented from going to her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation is to disobey this covenant till the Day of Judgment and the end of the world."
We both worship the same GOD. Just as it is wrong for a Muslim to elevate Muhammad to a position of diety, I believe it is wrong when Christians elevate the Bible to a position of diety. The Map is not the Territory, GOD is not the Bible and the Bible is not GOD.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 55 by IANAT, posted 04-07-2005 1:39 PM | | IANAT has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 71 of 105 (197534)
04-07-2005 6:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 68 by Jor-el
04-07-2005 4:29 PM
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Re: well, I'm a Christian ...
As far back as the Council of Trent in the 1500's it was established that original sin was something voluntary, something only analogous to sin. It is not something committed but only a state, a state of denial.
For a look from the Roman Catholic perspective, see here. But it is also a totally Un-Christian belief. Let me ask you a question. Jesus death reveals the message that GOD has forgiven us. Is that correct?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by Jor-el, posted 04-07-2005 4:29 PM | | Jor-el has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 78 by Phat, posted 04-08-2005 12:49 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 91 of 105 (197647)
04-08-2005 9:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
04-08-2005 12:49 AM
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Re: If Jesus did it all, are we responsible for anything?
If so, what do we need to be saved from? We need to be saved from what WE do. We don't need the extra burden of Old Sin, we're quite capable of committing New Sin.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by Phat, posted 04-08-2005 12:49 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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