Is Genesis to be taken literally Part II

There is another option to consider considering the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.In the 1st instance, God only barred humans from partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The tree of life was not barred to them before the fall.This being so, we can deduce that Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life on a regular basis. If the tree was intended to provide the immortality that made humans unique in that they didn't taste death, we can see logically that God would not want them to continue eating from the tree of life after they had gained knowledge of good and evil.Thus death entered the world or more specifically, humanity.We can also see from the passages that the two main aspects that define God are in existence in both these trees. God has eternal life and knowledge of good and evil. Having stated this God is warning them of the consequences of disobedience. (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible SocietyHaving disobeyed God and now having characteristics similar to those of God, God decided to banish them as a result of their disobedience as well as for fear of them continuing to eat of the tree of life.As can be seen here and nearly all of the bible, God deals with man as the central issue. The bible is just as much about man as about God. That is why in my opinion other issues are not dealt with that would simplify matters concerning death as well as the existence of Gods creation before man was created. God systematically throughout the bible refrains from speaking about anything that doesn't directly refer to mankind in some way.

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

And your point being? This message has been edited by Jor-el, 22 February 2005 23:37 AM

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

That's a very good point, Arachnophilia.

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Each to his own, my friend.Each of us are influenced not only by what they know (or think they know) but also by the culture that surrounds them. To you it might seem like I'm stretching to prove a point, to others who may look at my post, they''ll say, finally, I can relate to that and agree.Now in my opinion a good rebuttal to my post can be found in post 34 by Arachnophilia.This message has been edited by Jor-el, 23 February 2005 18:41 AM

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

My thoughts on the matter are posted on post 30 of this thread.As for a rebuttal, one can consider that since God introduced death at the begining of creation and not in the account of Genesis (since in my opinion those two things are seperate occurrences)and since the account of Genesis deals with the physical world and not directly with the spiritual, one can take a further step and say that the only reason that Adam and Eve didn't die like all the rest of the animals and plants is that they had to continue to to eat of the tree of life.The effect of the tree of knowledge in this context is different in that it gave them a new perspective on life that they were ignorant of before. The knowledge of the difference between good and evil. That knowledge once attained was irreversible so that they only had to eat of that tree once to be changed forever.

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

According to many (of which I am not one) the whole concept of the bible is a story book world.Since you put it in those terms I ask you the same question you asked me, What are your thoughts on the matter? Please.It is quite easy to scoff at what a person believes, especially when they can say it's just a fictional story, and that the person who believes is mixed up in the head, as I've seen through many indirect and cheap shots posted by many on this forum. I many times wonder if they are here to discuss with or insult those who do believe.

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

The only question I could possibly ask at this time is, what is the basis according to you that can then legitimize such a discussion?Without there being a continuous hail of reproof from those who always seem to think they know more than the others. ( as can be seen from your post 31 in reply to mine.)My teachers always warned me against bible bashing, but I see that quite alot here.

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

I actually agree with you on the point that this topic can be discussed from the point of view you subscribe to. I do that continually in my day to day work. The difficulty lies in that this specif topic also has a spiritual relevence which cannot be quantified by the method you subscribe to.In the context of this discussion if you leave out the spiritual world which in my opinion is as real as the physical one but cannot be quantified by human rationale in general, we are left with an incomplete approach to the discussion of this topic.We can still talk about it but it would be like making a cake with only half the ingredients. The richness of Genesis has this spiritual component which cannot just be metaphorical or allegorical as literature in general is studied.The spiritual world also exists and has to be taken into account.My difficulty in this situation is that when we say we are christians (for those that do say so), we automatically assume a set of beliefs that are accepted by a great majority of people that identify themselves as such. These dogmas or cornerstones of faith have to be accepted on faith for the christian faith to make sense and work in those peoples lives.If these cornerstones aren't accepted then the person can scream to high heaven that they are christian but in fact they are not. Saying it is not being it.For ex. Jesus died on a cross and shed his blood so that through his sacrifice we can be forgiven our sins and be saved. If there was actually no fall from grace then what he did has no significance since there was never any fall or transgresion.This is the singlemost important cornerstone of christianity. If we reject it we cannot be called or call ourselves christian.P.S I've tried to answer a few posts with this one, this is'nt only in relation to your comment crashfrog even though it's addressed to you.

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

I can call myself superman but it doesn't make me one. There is no such thing as a non practicing or non believing christian.Either you are or you aren't. Unlike many things in the world in this there is no grey area no matter how much you would like to believe differently.

You are free to believe that if you want. The other monotheistic faiths have that belief. Since christianity in this case doesn't share this belief with you in general, that leaves us with the my first point in that without this belief as a cornerstone in the christian faith one cannot call themselves christian.There is a difference between having grown up in a christian society and following the traditions of the church by rote and actually following the faith itself.True christianity is not a following of ritual and tradition it is the change that that faith provokes in peoples lives for the better. It is living it truly knowing that God is helping you all the way.That may sound corny but that is the difference between a dead religion and a living faith.

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Ok I agree with you you that the spiritual world is not quantifiable in a scientific sense. One cannot (in a scientifically based argument) use the the spiritual element to explain and refute a simple scientific debate.Yet here we are discussing Genesis and thus indirectly the bible in a way that deflates it of all its intended meaning and purpose.That leaves just the words to be analysed, taken apart and be put back together again in millions of different possibilities. Equating the book with general literature and interpreting it that way, ignoring the fact that this book is used by millions to know God in a personal way.If that is all we are doing here then I agree with all you have said in your posts on this thread. Since you can poke all the holes you want in the book and its meanings. You can even throw it away and live your life without a single backward thought on the matter.It doesn't change one essential item though, and that is that millions of lives are changed for the better when they read this book.You can deny the essence of the book or the existence of a spiritual element all you want, but you can't deny the evidence that this book changes peoples lives in a real way.So maybe we are talking at cross purposes and no real debate is possible since the only people you can debate with (and who will certainly agree with you) are those that deny the essence of what the bible is all about in the end.

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

I'm sure you know this but "Christian" means "follower of the Christ". You're playing with words without changing the meaning.

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

I must be getting senile in my old age. I've never in my entire life heard that the Anglican Communion and the Roman Catholic Church rejected the fall of man from grace (original sin).Please by all means show me the light in this respect.They may have many opposing views but I guarantee that that isn't one of them.

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Let me rephrase that then.God through the bible changes peoples lives. I know that as an athiest you could never accept this particular thought.It irritates many who are bound only by the 5 senses. Poppycock they say. It is inconcievable that a man can be so superstitious in this day and age, they say.Where there is a rejection of belief there is no faith and no understanding of God through the bible.

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Geez, you leave the screen for 24 hours and the conversation goes off in a million different ways...jar,In response to your link which I read carefully, there are two basic ideas I would like to comment on.When I am talking about the fall from grace I am reffering to 2 parallel aspects.The 1st being that the original sin as I put it, is a state of being imparted from Adam and Eve upon all generations that followed. This state is also referred to as the fall from grace. The article mentions this quite clearly... The fall from grace has clear effects on all of humanity and creation in general. We still suffer these effects today.(And in answer to your question...) Jesus died for our sins and removed the judgement upon us once we accept him as saviour, but he did not remove the effects themselves.That is why the world is still full of those injustices that make us ask where God is in all of this. We (all creation) are all still suffering due to the sin commited by Adam and Eve.The last point is this we ourselves can't commit the "original sin". Adam and Eve have that (dis)honour. Sin, from the start has always been a voluntary act but to differentiate it from the act that caused all these problems, we call it the original sin.The church in general does this to a degree even though it can be taken the wrong way. I'm sory for the cause of the misnomer.The point is that the church (any christian church) does not reject the original sin (fall from grace), but to many this can cause misinterpretations.As for this not being a christian belief, It is inherent to the belief that that is why Jesus died on the cross. Like I said it is a cornerstone of christian belief.crashfrog, Actually it is quite verifiable. If you read the testimonies of any christian worth his salt, you will see the difference in the life they had before they encountered Christ and the life they led afterward. All you have to do is listen. I'm an example of one of these even if I'm not the best example to be found.I tried to commit suicide and God saved me from that unfortunate incident. This was before I had ever read the bible. I became a christian due to what I read in the bible, and that made me the person I am today.I wouldn't want to bore you with the details but this just goes to show that the events related by me and by millions of others are quite verifiable if one cares to listen.Inherently all verifiable claims have to have a willing listener to be considered. To verify something is to subject it to an analysis and agree that there is proof of the existence of the claim. If you happen to know a person before and after the person has been changed by God you will find it difficult to say that they are dellusional or lying. The difference is profound.Now if its scientific proof you are after then the bible is not the subject to talk about, so maybe its best to start participating in quantum physics or astronomy forums, but even there you will find discord and heated debate on what is "verifiable". It isn't my intention to spout sermons and I hope you don't consider this to be one. I am simply trying to verify my previous statement

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.