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Author Topic:   Should Sacred Studies be part of a general public school curricula
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 161 (205627)
05-06-2005 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Tony650
05-06-2005 1:15 PM


GOD vs God vs god.
That's a short OT digression so I'll try to answer.
If GOD exists, and I believe there is overwhelming evidence the she does, is he the Christian God, the Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, Norse, Greek Egyptian or American Indian god?
He is GOD. That's it.
Not the Christian God. Not the Jewish God, not the God of the Aztecs. GOD.
The creator.
GOD.
St. Paul's did provide an environment where someone could get a good education. But it's not unique. There are many such places. The important thing is not the school itself but that by its existence, it proves that it can be done. The rest is a function of will, morality and drive.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Tony650, posted 05-06-2005 1:15 PM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Tony650, posted 05-06-2005 3:43 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 55 of 161 (205639)
05-06-2005 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by redseal
05-03-2005 3:40 AM


Good questions
First, there is knowledge to be gained regardless of the source.
Second, religion, all religions, affect the culture. To understand the culture it is necessary to understand religion.
Third, to test and temper their faith. A faith unchallenged is a weak faith.
Fourth, GOD, if he exists, can speak through any medium.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by redseal, posted 05-03-2005 3:40 AM redseal has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 161 (205655)
05-06-2005 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Tony650
05-06-2005 3:43 PM


Re: GOD vs God vs god.
So, essentially, it's an all-encompassing term; the god of all. You write it this way to distinguish it from "God," the term specifically referencing the god of Judeo-Christianity. Is this it, in a nutshell? If so then I believe I understand.
Close, very close. I could live with that.
I for one wish these schools all the best, and here's to many more of them
So here is a practical suggestion. Copy down the curriculum or if you want, I can get St. Paul's to send you a copy. Take it to every school and school board meeting and demand the same.
If no one ever asks for such a curriculum ... what makes you think it will happen?
It's something that has been done and so it's possible. It's been done more than once so it's replicable. But if you and others set standards lower than that, then you cannot expect to have such a curriculum in your schools.
AbE:
When the objection that it would cost too much comes up, suggest a Charter School be set up in the district based on that curriculum.
This message has been edited by jar, 05-06-2005 02:57 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 56 by Tony650, posted 05-06-2005 3:43 PM Tony650 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 161 (205696)
05-06-2005 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Tony650
05-06-2005 3:43 PM


Adding some more information.
Here is the opening statement from the National Association of Episcopal Schools. I quote it in its entirety because it's short and IMHO concerns this thread.
What are the principal qualities that distinguish a school as Episcopal?
This question, more than any other, is asked of NAES by Episcopal school and Church leaders, parents and the general public. The answer is that they are Christian communities whose missions integrate spiritual formation into all aspects of the educational experience. Episcopal schools are most distinctive when they are true to this mission and when they do so in the graceful and inclusive manner which is the hallmark of the Anglican approach to education over the centuries.
All Christian communities, even the most ecumenical and diverse of Episcopal schools, are upheld by the basic principles of the Baptismal Covenant. As expressed in The Book of Common Prayer, this Covenant maintains that individuals and institutions are called by God to adopt certain fundamental disciplines and dispositions in order to embrace fully their basic identities. As embodiments of the Christian faith, Episcopal schools are created to be communities that honor, celebrate and worship God as the center of life. They are created to be models of God's love and grace. They are created to serve God in Christ in all persons, regardless of origin, background, ability, or religion. They are created to strive for justice and peace among all people and [to] respect the dignity of every human being. These principles are the basis on which identity and vocation are to be defined in Episcopal schools.
Episcopal schools are populated by a rich variety of human beings, from increasingly diverse religious, cultural and economic backgrounds. In fact, the intentional pluralism of most Episcopal schools is a hallmark of their missions. It is also a distinguishing characteristic of these schools that they seek to integrate religious and spiritual formation into the overall curriculum and life of each school community. Episcopal schools are clear, yet graceful, about how they articulate and express their basic identities, especially in their religious curricula and traditions. They invite all who attend and work in them Episcopalians and non-Episcopalians, Christians and non-Christians, people of no faith tradition both to seek clarity about their own beliefs and religions and to honor those traditions more fully and faithfully in their own lives. Above all, Episcopal schools exist not merely to educate, but to demonstrate and proclaim the unique worth and beauty of all human beings as creations of a loving, empowering God.
By weaving these principles into the very fabric of the school's overall life, Episcopal schools ensure that their missions are built on the sure foundation of a Christian love that guides and challenges all who attend our schools to build lives of genuine meaning, purpose and service in the world they will inherit.
Welcome to the community of Episcopal schools.
A religious based school or course does not have to be indocrination or brain washing. I can be and should be inclusive of all belief systems.
Here is yet another link, this time to the National Association of Episcopla Schools website.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Tony650, posted 05-06-2005 3:43 PM Tony650 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 161 (205731)
05-06-2005 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Taqless
05-06-2005 6:01 PM


!=
Computer short hand for not equal to.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Taqless, posted 05-06-2005 6:01 PM Taqless has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Taqless, posted 05-06-2005 7:45 PM jar has not replied
 Message 66 by SuperDave, posted 05-08-2005 2:01 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 161 (205839)
05-07-2005 11:49 AM


Bump for comment from those who have not yet expressed an opinion
Hopefully there are still readers out there who have an opinion on this. I invite all of you to respond and let us know how you would feel about Sacred Studies as a part of general education.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by MangyTiger, posted 05-07-2005 5:13 PM jar has not replied
 Message 64 by mick, posted 05-07-2005 5:15 PM jar has not replied
 Message 65 by SuperDave, posted 05-08-2005 1:56 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 161 (206105)
05-08-2005 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by SuperDave
05-08-2005 2:01 AM


And is always called, "bang equals".
JSMTN (just some more trivial nonsense)

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by SuperDave, posted 05-08-2005 2:01 AM SuperDave has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 69 of 161 (206111)
05-08-2005 12:55 PM


A question for exeryone who responded so far
If this is a good idea how could it be implemented?
Just to make clear what I'm suggestiong, I'll try to do a short summary.
  • a multi-year, multi-semester course.
  • beginning about midway through Primary education and continuing until graduation.
  • integrated with other disciplines, for example
    • in history religious components of different cultures would be included.
    • in mathematics, the contributions of the Greek and Islamic world would be included.
    • in current events the influence and effects of religious viewpoints would be included.
  • it would cover many different religions.
  • philosophy, including naturalistic ones would be covered.
  • testing would be done based on objective as opposed to subjective criteria.

      questions would not be on what you believe but rather
    • "What did Mencius say about ..."
    • what is the "Eight fold Path?
    • who drove the Jews out of Spain?
    • who offered those Jews sanctuary and provided transportation for them?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 2:05 PM jar has replied
 Message 74 by SuperDave, posted 05-08-2005 3:03 PM jar has replied
 Message 80 by CK, posted 05-08-2005 4:51 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 71 of 161 (206126)
05-08-2005 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by mick
05-08-2005 2:05 PM


Re: A question for exeryone who responded so far
And everybody is taught how to use arabic numerals.
Spend some time over in the Faith forums and you'll find out how seldom that is understood or acknowledged.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 2:05 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 2:41 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 161 (206162)
05-08-2005 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by mick
05-08-2005 2:41 PM


Re: A question for exeryone who responded so far
The problem is that the quality of maths education, worldwide, is already quite poor. For many kids, just understanding simple differential equations is a struggle. If we were to sacrafice classroom hours to studying the detailed history of the discipline, I don't see that the quality of maths education would increase.
The big issue I have with this is that Education is no a zero sum game. I do not want to see anything sacrificed. Nor is a detailed history of the field necessary.
One thing I have seen here quite often is a statement similar to "Western Civilization is a product of the Christian Religion".
Frankly, that's nonsense. In fact, Christianity has historically been one of the most backward and intolerant of all religions. These are things that need to be pointed out and included in anyones education.
In math specifically, no modern math would be possible without the contributions of the Arabs, specifically, the Muslim mathematicians. That's something every student, whether a math student or just general should know and undderstand.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 2:41 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 4:42 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 161 (206164)
05-08-2005 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by SuperDave
05-08-2005 3:03 PM


Re: A question for exeryone who responded so far
But the main reason you have religious influences upon the early sciences is that there were usually only two types of people who could get any sort of advanced education---the wealthy ruling class and the religious class.
A very great point and one that could lead to lots of worthwhile discussions among the kids.
But to say that religion is responsible for the advancement of science is a lot like claiming for yourself all credit for your house appreciating in value.
Oh, but I don't say that. In fact, I say almost the opposite of that.
We also need to understand that religion quite often hindered the advancement of science. We need to know and understand the Negative potential for and of religion as well as we understand the positive, and we may need to understand the negative potential of religion even MORE than its positive potential.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by SuperDave, posted 05-08-2005 3:03 PM SuperDave has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 161 (206180)
05-08-2005 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by mick
05-08-2005 4:42 PM


Zero sum game?
The fact that I can show examples of where such things are done, and that the program is replicable, seems to indicate that it's possible.
In our 24 hour day, we can do all I have outlined and still provide a great, not good, general education.
It is not easy. It is not inexpensive. But it can be done.
The other choice is to not do so. And that seems to be the choice we have made here in the US. I wonder though if we made the choice knowingly, if those people making the decisions are aware of what actually can be done.
Go back to Message 44 where there is a link to the curriculum at St. Paul's and to Message 49 where there is a link to the curriculum at St. Paul's School for Girls.
Look them over. Do they reflect what you think would be a good basic education for every child? Would you want YOUR child to have those opportunities available?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 4:42 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 5:11 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 161 (206182)
05-08-2005 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by CK
05-08-2005 4:51 PM


Re: A question for exeryone who responded so far
Thanks for the link. I must say I was somewhat disappointed by the questions but perhaps that's to be expected. I'll spend some time and look them over more fully.
There could be the makings of a whole thread there.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by CK, posted 05-08-2005 4:51 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by CK, posted 05-08-2005 5:19 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 84 of 161 (206190)
05-08-2005 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by mick
05-08-2005 5:11 PM


Re: Zero sum game?
Look at the curriculum. It's posted for both schools.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 94 of 161 (206445)
05-09-2005 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by EZscience
05-09-2005 10:08 AM


Two possible solutions to your concerns are to design a broad curriculum and to design OBJECTIVE as opposed to subjective tests.
But a third alternative is to challenge kids to think. Teach them how to think. Teach them how to test, temper and fine what they believe.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by EZscience, posted 05-09-2005 10:08 AM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
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