Christian Group has bank account removed due to "unacceptable views"

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The idea of "love and tolerance" that you have is not Christ's love and tolerance. He died for our sins, He never condoned them -- they cost Him His life for our sake. Love and tolerance in a society may certainly mean efforts to keep the society in obedience to the Law of God for exactly the reason Steve Green says - God's wrath will come upon that nation for its abandonment of Him, and this revisionist definition of His love and tolerance is one of the greatest offenses, putting good for evil and evil for good (Isaiah 5:20).

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So sad to hear Green refer to the former Christian identity of England, its dependence on the God of Christianity in the world wars -- not that long ago but what an eternity ago ideologically -- and his fear for his nation's now coming under God's judgment.

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America is certainly ripe for God's judgment for exactly the same violations of God's Law. I think the WTC blow was just a warning, but nobody's heeding it so something worse will no doubt eventually follow.

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I seem to remember something in the bible that goes, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."Or something like that.Are you without sin, Faith?After all, to hear you talk you are the only real Christian in the entire world.At least, you are the only one who is 100% correct in all matters regarding Christianity.Right?Gosh I am so glad that I know some Christians who really do live a Christ-like life of generosity, kindness, joy, and love for their fellow human beings.It would truly be sad if I thought that you and your delight in revenge and persecution were representative of most Christians.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-26-2005 02:29 PM

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I think people should do as they please but not do it in anybody's face, such as in parades down main streets,

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Oh, do you mean like Christmas and Easter parades?

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and not be given any special status by the government for doing it

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Oh, do you mean like the fact that Christmas is a national holiday?

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and not be allowed to change 6000-year-old crosscultural tradition to accommodate what they do (gay marriage),

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and not be allowed to change 6000-year-old crosscultural tradition to accommodate what they do (interracial/interfaith marriage)

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and not be subjected to any kind of persecution for it.

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So, a gay couple who doesn't invite you to their wedding and just wants to live their life together in peace is OK with you?

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Guess what, I also think bigots are human beings and to attack personal beliefs no matter what they are, including bigotry, such as by denying services to them, makes the deniers worse than bigots. Leave people alone.

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I work at a Jewish deli.If people came into the store dressed in white sheets at tall, pointy hoods, or perhaps in Nazi or Hitler costumes, would you consider the managers or the owners at fault for refusing to serve them?

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Show me where objecting to homosexuality on the ground that its support by the society will bring God's wrath on the society is throwing a stone.

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You are judging others, plain and simple.That Bible passage I mentioned came straight from Christ as he chastized the Pharisees for wanting to stone a sinful woman, IIRC.You are judging others and Christ would chastize you just as he did the Pharisees, I should think.

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Seems to me the stones being thrown are being aimed at Christian Voice and on this typical EvC thread, at me.

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Well, hateful, mean groups like CV are drawing fire, yes, and your support of their hate is also drawing criticism, it's true.

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Thanks for the rest of your vote of confidence.

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Look, do you deny that you are NOT generally a voice of love, joy, and generosity atround here, and in fact are quite the opposite?Was Christ one to threaten and was he angry all the time like you, or was he known as the Prince of Peace?

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Let's see, I've got Chas Knight, crash, you, jar, Ned, and who
all else here hating my guts for what,

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Hate your guts?Oh my, hardly.I am often amused by your incredible venom (not so poisonous lately!), impressed with your ability to perform intellectual contorsions previously unknown to humanity, and often saddened by the apparent waste of such a fine intellect, but hate you? No.Sorry, your persecution complex won't get any feeding from me.

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for saying that I think the bank has the right to deny business to whomever, and that being a Bible-believing Christian I agree with Steve Green, who is trying to save his nation from God's wrath.

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So, if this group decided that women shouldn't be allowed to own property, and in fact, should actually go back to being the property of their fathers and husbands, because clearly this is how the Bible wishes society to be run, would it be OK with you?If a bank refused to deal with women, would that be OK with you?

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No sane society has ever given active support to any kind of sin against God's Law.

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Oh, you mean like the sin against keeping no other gods but God?You know, the First Commandment?So, no other society in the world has ever given active support to a plural society in which people are free to worship any god or gods they please?Funny, I was thinking of one very near and dear to me that, lo and behold, I am living in RIGHT NOW!

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Protection of course, since we're all sinners, but government or any kind of official accommodation to such behavior calls down judgment on the society.

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...according to you, the final arbiter of all things correct about Christianity.

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Can't jeopardize our profits for the paltry purpose of defending God and morality.

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And you are, naturally, the final arbiter of what God wants and what is and isn't moral, aren't you?

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Same here. So much for "government of the people, by the people, for the people."

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"The people" were mostly against equal rights for women and African Americans, too.Do you think women getting the vote was wrong because most people in the country didn't want it? What about ending Jim Crowe?

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Hang it all, let the nation come under God's wrath. "Oh but we don't BELIEVE in that." Well, God does, so good luck.

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...and you are, naturally, the final arbiter of what God wants, aren't you?

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Oh, and all men but one against a lone woman. How gallant. How the West has fallen.

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Oh, they could put you up on a pedestal, but then you would have never been allowed on the computer in the first place, let alone taken seriously as if you had could possibly have any kind of worthwhile opinion at all, because you're only a girl.Oh, and Entomologista is a woman, too.

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Pedestals not required, just basic respect. Not much of that around here. Didn't even see a post by Entomologista, but that's sweet too, two females and half a dozen guys all against me.

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Respect?You actually have the enormous brass balls to demand respect from me?You called me the stupidest person on this board, Faith, and you have never apologized or even pretended to have any remorse about that completely personal, ad hominem attack.Who do you think you are, talking to me about wanting to be treated with respect?What makes you think you deserve it or have earned it from me, even though I have said nothing disrespectful to you in this thread?

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My God is the FORMER God of Western Civilization, the FORMER God of Great Britain for a millennium or so, the FORMER God of the United States from its settling to some forty years ago or so. The God who made the West great. There is no other, and the UK once knew it, America once knew it.

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So, you're not a Christian but a Deist like Jefferson, Wahington, Franklin, Paine, etc?Can we assume that you follow the Jefferson Bible?

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Exactly. That is exactly how the voice of the people gets trampled and elitist fascistic tyranny takes over.

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Um, WTF?We get tyrrany when the law is impartial?So, you think that the blindfold on that statue of justice should be taken off, eh?Justice should be able to see if that person "looks right"?

When you say this:

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I apologize to you for calling you stupid.

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...but then completely rationalize and make excuses for your behavior by saying:

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I was severely provoked at the time and you were part of the provocation.

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you nullify the apology.So, does this mean that when you were provoking me by calling me the stupidest person on this board, it would have been OK for me to call you an ignorant moron?Would that have been acceptable adult behavior in your eyes, no matter what the provocation?

Thank you, I accept.

Aw, now that's downright sweet.I understand about frustration, believe me, and I have certainly let it get the best of me on plenty of occasions.I really do appreciate your comments.

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The point about gay marriage is that the very idea destroys the meaning of marriage.

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Well, which "meaning of marriage" do you have in mind?The one in which marriages were meant to solidify clan or political alliances?Or the one in which the ownership of the females passed from father to husband and the sole purpose of the female was to produce a male heir, and if she failed, she could be discarded?Tell me, Faith, just what do you think marriage has been all about for the vast, vast majority of the history of the institution?

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There is not one single reason for gays to be married, it's all cosmetic, all psychological.

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Uh, of course it's "all psychological". That's what love is, even herterosexual love. It's a state of mind, and it's a way of life.

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It accomplishes nothing for the society except the final destruction of the meaning of marriage in the public mind,

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There are many different "meanings of marriage" in the public mind, Faith.Many people believe that marriage is a partnership between equals and has nothing at all to do with religion. Others believe that marriage is sacred, and/or the the wife should be subservient and obedient to the husband.The point is, nobody can make your church perform religious marriage ceremonies for same sex couples if they don't want to, just like nobody can force your church to perform interracial marriages or mixed faith marriages if they don't want to. You can discriminate as much as you want to in your chuurch, more power to you.But our secular government can't do that.And besides, wouldn't it be great if all of these single gay parents could get married to their partners so their children could get social security benefits and other right enjoyed by the children of straight parents? Why do you want to punish those children? Just because you think you have the right to impose your religious morality upon everyone else in the country?

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and what it would accomplish for gays legally can be done in other ways quite easily and leave marriage alone for what it has always been intended for.

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"Always been intended for?" The solitification of political alliances and the exchange and consolidation of property?

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Over half the nation voted for Bush.

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No, 51% of voters voted for Bush.Only about 42% of the US population voted in the last election.So that means that only about 21% of the country voted for Bush.

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Children who have a variety of temporary "parents" for instance instead of their natural father and mother, or an artificial parentage of gays, often in that case impermanent too. What's good about this? This is the result of legally indulging the whims of individuals instead of enforcing sane rules on all of us.

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Faith, I live in a small city where gay people are welcomed. In addition, the local adoption laws are such that it is relatively easy for gay couples to adopt each other's children.Several of these couples live in my neighborhood and many come into the shop where I work.Can you tell me how it is that you know that these people are simply adopting and raising children on a whim? They seem to say and do all of the same things with their kids that hetero parents do (and sometimes they are much better parents), but it sure seems like you know better, even though they are my neighbors and all.Can you also instruct me in the ways I can tell that they are "artificial parents"? Exactly what does this mean?

In what way are homosexual people unequal to straight people?Is it kind of like Blacks, or Jews?

How do you know that "natural" parenting is ideal?And what, exactly, is natural and what is not natural?Is it natural if a mother raises her kids but the husband is away on business 10 months out of the year? What about if a father is a stay at home dad? What if they have a nanny and an au pair? What if grandma lives with them? What if the kids live with Grandma in the summer time?Are any of these situations "natural"?