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Author | Topic: Christian Group has bank account removed due to "unacceptable views" | |||||||||||||||||||||||
CK Member (Idle past 4157 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
So it doesn't get lost:
quote: I don't get it - sexual liberation means those things should be raging out of control! I'm so confused......
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Anything that trivializes or weakens marriage destabilizes a society. Yes, you've said that. The question though was "How does a gay marriage weaken society"? Before that the question was "How does a gay marriage affect a heterosexual marriage"? In both cases you didn't answer the question, you just resorted to your claim that gay marriage trivializes or demeans marriage. Then you wander off into one of your "It's obvious" rants. So I'll try again. Do you think it is right to deny a homosexual person health care? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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CK Member (Idle past 4157 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yeah. They've done a pretty good job of reproducing the drawings from some of the original versions. I hold out little hope though for the rest.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Thus, you are providing an analysis of the last century. a very biased, cherry-picked, incomplete one, but it is an analysis, nonetheless.
quote: But this was your implication, wasn't it? That sometime in the past things were "ideal"? When was that?
quote: Abortion was legal in the US up until around 1900, although illegal abortions were frequent, just so you know. So it's been legal in the colonies much longer than it has been illegal.
quote: ...as women started gaining self worth instead of attaching their worth to the man they married.
quote: As many women were not content to be "happy housewives" on Valium anymore, traditional marriage and the limitations that entailed didn't work for them anymore. Now we have many more women in the workplace, running businesses, and contributing their considerable intellect to the culture.
quote: I think this has more to do with people waiting longer to get married, the advent of the Pill so women could control their own fertility, and also women have thrown off the oppressive notion that to have sex before marriage makes her a worthless whore.
quote: Marital rape was, until recently totally sanctioned by society, and specifically sanctioned by the Christian religion. Do you suggest that marital rape was OK because it was sanctioned for so long?
quote: I had sex before I was married. How did that affect you?
quote: Gee, until the sexual revolution in the 1960's brought with it a new opennes and frankness about sexuality, people pretended it didn't happen at all. We don't know how bad it was because it was too taboo a subject to even talk about. Oh, and rape was a woman's fault, too.
quote: Less shame and a better standing of women without needing to be associated with a man to make anything she does legitimate is bad in what way?
quote: What is so great about patriarchy?
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5848 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
Your lack of understanding history, specifically sexual history is hampering any discussion with you. You make assertions, we ask for proof, you disappear. You reappear with assertions, we ask for proof, you disappear or claim you don't need to know since there is an obvious trend since the 60's.
Go back in history to put the 60s in the proper perspective. As it stands the recent rash of sex by clergy (including with children) is not new. What is new is the upsurge in hysteria regarding sex with children and thus a rooting out of any and all possible perpetrators, including cases that are 30+ years old. There obviously won't be as many of those as there will be more recent ones. Don't get me wrong, I realize how ridiculous and unhealthy it is for a person whose dedicated profession it is to tell people they are going to hell for sex, to then turn around and convince young children, placed in their care by trusting parents, to have sex. My point is only that it has been going on for some time, and simply overlooked as not that important until the USA went bonkers as if children having sex was equal to being tortured and killed. Then it seemed like something new was happening. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I make a conjecture that can't be proved and you carry on as if I'd violated a basic tenet of science. Then you go on and make your own assertions without one iota of proof. That this is all hysteria and not reality. Well prove it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But this was your implication, wasn't it? That sometime in the past things were "ideal"? No I did not. Look, you are ideologically disposed in exactly the direction I'm complaining about and I give up. There's no arguing this after a point. You like the new order, I think it is leading us to destruction. This is not to say everything prior was "ideal" by a long shot, but it sure is to say that the "solution" of the last half century is a disaster.
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CK Member (Idle past 4157 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
quote: see don't get this do you? Holmes can't prove a negative (debating clearly isn't your thing) and it's you who wants to make specific claims about society - so how about you back them up? I think we are getting a little bored with the poor quality of your posts on this matter. How about you piss in the pot or get off it? Give us someone actually worth debating or just leave the thread. This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 05-Jul-2005 06:38 PM
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
What I really want to know is what you think was so great about patriarchy.
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Taqless Member (Idle past 5942 days) Posts: 285 From: AZ Joined: |
No I did not. However, it is your assumption that there was a better time. It comes part and parcel with your claim that "we" have been in social decline....we cannot have declined from a lower point, right? As you point out marriage was not always about love and romance. It was about social connections and property, to include money and power as well as survival (financially and through help from relatives). Under these basic guidelines gay marriage does not threaten heterosexual marriage. The claim to reproduction as a necessity does not really exist any longer wouldn't you agree?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
faith, deep in spin cycle, msg 247 writes: ...I support businesses rejecting the business of anyone for any reason; nevertheless I may think their choice unjust... Sorry, if it is a right for business to make this kind of decision then it is de facto a just decision. Period. It cannot be unjust.
... I very consciously made both statements ... and still failed to see the logical contradiction, even when the flag was raised on it.
It isn't rocket science. No, it's just basic logic. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm afraid that's more like logic-chopping or nitpicking than logic.
All kinds of petty injustices occur all day long between people. If we prosecuted them all, we'd all be in prison. I am in favor of people's right to commit what in my opinion may be injustices, because in their opinion they are not injustices and I don't want to make an issue of it. The bigger injustice would be to force the business to serve those they'd rather not. People must have the right to be wrong, as I've said many times here. So let the businesses do as they please, unjust or not. I care more about FREEDOM for people to have whatever opinion they have. You can't have perfection in this life and whenever anybody tries they end up creating totalitarian tyrannies. Save prosecution for serious harm to others, but people have a right to do as they please with their own businesses and their own property short of criminal activity. THAT's my position. I hope that's clear but if not, have a good day anyway. This message has been edited by Faith, 07-06-2005 05:12 AM
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5848 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
I make a conjecture that can't be proved and you carry on as if I'd violated a basic tenet of science. You made an argument. And yes it is against the rules of good debate.
Then you go on and make your own assertions without one iota of proof. That this is all hysteria and not reality. Well prove it. Knight has already explained this, but I will repeat it to see if it sticks: I cannot prove a negative. You are the one making a positive claim. I am questioning your claim, and so you must back it up. I'm going to repeat something I said earlier about you. I admire your clarity of writing. It is very good. The problem is you have not added the next critical element, which is logic. Great writing skills with no analytical skills or knowledge of how arguments are properly constructed is pure fluffery, fiction, hardly even raising to the level of sophistry. You really should check into some logic courses. I am not being sarcastic at all. Do this and add some solidity to the quality of your prose. I might then add that you need to move away from the Bible or news media you currently get your messages from and read history, go to actual documents if you want to avoid "liberal spin". Evidence is the next important element after logic. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What I really want to know is what you think was so great about patriarchy. I think it's the God-ordained form of society. Nevertheless, people being fallen, men have abused it. But people, being fallen, will abuse any system. The problems of life are from fallenness, while a particular system may be good in itself -- or bad. The one we have now is bad. It's basically chaos, and it can only lead to more chaos. It gives license to fallenness without restraint. I don't think any society can survive that for long.
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