General discussion of moderation procedures: The Sequel

You did not follow through on my suggestions. I strongly urge you to do so before continuing this discussion.

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No, your real question is "should anyone who thinks differently about the Bible than I do be allowed to make comments about it?" I realize it's going to shock you, but you need to understand that our comments don't betray our ignorance of the Bible, it betrays yours. A fair number of us here know quite a bit about the Bible from our own study, academic learning, and religious instruction. The people who are the most ignorant about the Bible tend to be those who actually believe every word of it. The reason that we make the comments, and why you can't understand or rebut them, is because our understanding of the Bible is greater than yours. Shocking, I know, but generally true. How about you grant us the courtesy of not leveling spurious, insulting allegations with no basis in fact after three posts.

Hi Eltonian James. I followed that shunting of your proposal from the Links thread to the PNT thread to this thread. Unfortunately, at least Brian, I'm not sure about the other two, is very knowledgeable about the Bible, and in fact teaches on it. This is what you are up against here. Nevertheless, Admin Percy is right that remarks about Jesus being gay or a bigot are nothing but wild speculation and should be criticized as such. His suggestion that more evangelical moderators are needed, however, doesn't realistically take into account that evangelicals are in the decided minority against Bible trashers here, even Bible trashers who claim to be Christians, and Bible trashers who have quite a bit of knowledge about the Bible, some who would take strong issue with my calling them Bible trashers as their view is that they are reading it as it SHOULD be read.I have been here only a few months and have received quite an education in the varieties of "Christians" there are. Also, as someone pointed out, you need to be aware that the people who are the most anti-Bible from an evangelical point of view may consider themselves creationists rather than evolutionists, though certainly not Young Earth Creationists based on the Bible.You have entered the Twilight Zone, Eltonian. Welcome, and take this as a heads up.

He followed through on PERCY's recommendations.

yes.but if you don't want to debate with them, debate with me. i DO study the bible. most of my debates here are religious ones -- you'll notice i'm currently involved in a biblical debate in the "great debate" forum.see that in my signature? that's hebrew. you can tell me all about my ignorance of the subject when you tell me what it says and why it's funny.what's further, james, is that i am a christian. and as christian, your comments offend me. you see, one of the reason i became a christian was because i believed in the things christ said. and christ said that we are not to condemn or judge others. someone who condemns or judges in the name of christ is therefore a hypocrit, something else jesus commonly spoke out against. you will notice i countered your comment with the words of christ.This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 07-23-2005 02:28 PM

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אָרַח

The message was reposted here as suggested by the Admin Director.You state in another post: I find this hard to believe. If this is true, they should explain the Biblical basis for their comments.You also state: The title "Christian Evolutionist" is an oxymoron. Anyone can believe themselves to be a Christian but all too often their words betray them, as the aforementioned posters have proven. One cannot be a true Christian when ones denies Christ or His teachings. Just because some white guy chooses to refer to himself as a black man does not make him black. I can recognize ignorance when I see it, thank you very much. While I appreciate offered help, I did not come here to become someone's puppet on a string, following their every whim without resistance. I guess for some individuals ignorance is bliss. However, I am not required to share in their ignorance.

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"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

i'm sure that's aimed at me.do you have a different interpretation of "judge not, lest ye be judged?"

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אָרַח

You title is very aptHow does:

quote:

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I know little about the sciences, (only what I read in journals, books, etc.), and am therefore not qualified to discuss indepth the various aspects of the theory of evolution.

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fit with:

quote:

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the TOE is living proof of this. The TOE as taught today has been proven a bankrupt theory and yet there is still much support for it.

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So yes I would like to know - ARE YOU QUALIFED?

funny, i have. you're dodging it. (jar is also a christian, just so you know) like "love your neighbor" or "judge not, lest ye be judged?" no, one cannot be a true christian if the judge others -- their words betray them. because clearly the only people who are REALLY christians are the ones that believe the specific way you do, that jesus wrote all of the bible himself. that's why we have four gospels that don't always agree, don'tchaknow.

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אָרַח

You may have what it takes to be that moderator Percy suggested is needed, somebody who won't give in to the prevailing attitude but take a clear firm position on standards. Jar is right that you need to familiarize yourself with the place more, but I understand that that can be a daunting prospect to someone who just arrived.

The suggestion to Eltonian to post here was so it could be discussed whether more respect should be shown toward Christian beliefs in the religious forums, not so that the topic of a discussion thread could be moved here.While we don't call it "showing respect", it seems somewhat the same thing that we don't allow people to propose ideas in violation of known physical laws without good reason. In the science forums we wouldn't let someone to argue, "Gravity is only a theory, so objects could start falling up tomorrow." Might it be the same thing to say in the religious forums, "The Bible is only a book, Jesus may never have existed." At least if said without substantiation.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

"By their fruits ye shall know them."Many of the loudly-professing "Christians" around here don't behave anything like Christians."Judge not, lest ye be judged."It is not for you to decide who is a Christian or what is required to be a Christian.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

The only time I've ever felt my Christian beliefs have been treated with less than respect has been by "christians" and not by non-believers. Once again my beliefs have been insulted by that hoary old chestnut that if you accept TOE you can't be a Christian. Can I suggest that Eltonian be reminded that there are many people active in science who accept the TOE and are Christian? Since he/she admits to knowing bugger all about science he/she must be in total ignorance of how Christianity and TOE are not mutually exclusive.Eltonian, as a scientist and a practicing Christian I'm a damned sight more qualified than you to make sweeping pronouncements on the incompatibility or otherwise of the two. I manage it although I suppose I'm at an advantage in that I understand what science is about. You don't, so how can you make judgements about the compatibility??

That sounds like judging to me. Perhaps some "christians", (i use the term loosely), would argue that Christ contradicts Himself. I must say, when anyone decides to pick and choose which verses of scripture they will believe, they reveal themselves for what they are and "Christian" is not a term I would apply to them even if they choose to apply it to themselves. However, feel free to refer to yourself as anything that pleases you, that is your choice. I cannot judge what is truly in your heart, only God can do that. Just don't expect me to compromise the Word of God so that others can feel good about themselves and what they believe to be truth.

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"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

But the Bible is "only a book" and Jesus may never have existed.How can somebody who takes that position be expected to substantiate a negative? Isn't it the positive side - i.e. that the Bible is a unique book and that jesus did exist - the position which needs to be substantiated?

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.