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Author | Topic: God says this, and God says that | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: I see you are conveniently above the standards to which you wish to hold the rest of us.
quote: Too many to count. You see, I have this terrible problem. I can't stop thinking. I try, but I just can't stop thinking.
quote: No. It just makes me realize that the two of you are more alike than I would have suspected. With nos, I made the mistake of criticising Wicca. And nos launched into lengthy attack on my character, complete with the very same misrepresentations you chose. Misrepresentations, chosen, I suspect because of the ease of misuse and because of the sensitive nature of the topics. Certain subjects carry so much emotional charge that once lit, spiral out of control leaving reason far behind. These are the fires you tries to light. And you are a bastard for it.
quote: So you believe. I felt and feel that your first post to me and most of your others are severely lacking in quality.
quote: Nice that you finally realize that I wasn't.
quote: I'm not sure what you are talking about, but it is simple the way I see it. Faith is belief without evidence-- evidence of things not seen, that sort of thing. How exactly do you earn that? What kind of work do you do to earn it? And if you earn it, it isn't belief without evidence. Faith earned through works should be measurable-- at least as measurable as most psychological studies pre-high-tech lab.
quote: I can sit here and choose pretty much anything and build an unassailable faith around it. It isn't that difficult. I was raised Southern Baptist and I have since believed in several other religious structures, before settling on the idea that none of them make sense.
quote: Ok. But I still don't know how this comes from the sentence I asked about.
quote: muchos gracias
quote: No. I have a problem with WHY the House did what they did and how they did it. It was blatant censorship of a scientific study. I don't care how contraversial the result turned out to be, the study was done properly and made it into a peer reviewed journal. I doubt this study has stood the test of the two or three years since I read the report which prompted the article. Actually changing laws based on one study would be idiotic, especially one with this much potential to do harm. And by the way, there have been several people very close to me who were victimized as children, one in particular suffered very badly -- meaning both that it happened an unbelievable number of times and that the consequences were pretty rough too. So, in short, you are really stepping out of line on this one.
quote: The title is almost verbatim what this study was labeled by groups who were up in arms about it several years ago. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Is it wrong to be critical of ideas? If yes, what are you doing here and if no, drop it. Stereotype? Funk, everything is a stereotype if you break it down. Would you object to "Christians are honest, hard-working people?" Well, that is a stereotype too. Guess we'll ditch that. You cannot talk about groups without stereotyping, its just that people only complain when they don't like what is said. A stereotype is a concept used to think, and speak, in general terms. The trick is to not apply the general concept to individuals. That is when it causes trouble.
quote: Talk to gene about that. It is hard not to respond to being called a pedophile. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Personal experience for you. Second hand for me. If you could document anything I'd be interested. I have heard similar stories from other people as well, but with different gods inserted into the appropriate blanks. These have all been second hand to me, but first hand to the one who told me, just like your stories. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: hmmm... not either really. Such bias is bound to exist in any endeavor no matter what side you are on. I think the methods of science are designed to overcome this bias and I also think those methods do a very good job of it. The personal biases of thousands of individuals should somewhat cancel out and the appeal to detectable evidence and reproducible results weeds out most of the rest.
quote: It is reasonable to argue based on what we've got, not on what we don't have.
quote: It seems to me that you have defined everything that is not absolutely certain to be faith based. Since nothing is absolutely certain-- the fundamental assumptions of any metaphysic cannot be tested-- then eveything is based on faith. I don't really think this is what you mean, but if you are happy with it... fine. It effectively makes faith a useless variable. It exists in all systems, so we simply write it off. Divide by faith across the board and get rid of it.
quote: Seems to me that god is supposed to generate a physical tangible result-- everything.
quote: God is not supposed to DO anything then? Because doing anything at all should leave marks.
quote: Really?
quote: That you assert something does not mean I have to buy it.
quote: I am aware that this is how you function as a scientist, but you are still trying to slip past the idea that you don't BELIEVE either, without testing. But God can't be tested, as you have explained. Yet you do believe. It is this quirk that troubling.
quote: And if we believed everything that did not have a positive disproof we'd be in bad shape as well. Yet this is what you appear to argue in the case of your religion.
quote: My beliefs are based on evidence, not the lack of it. Can you sincerely not see the difference?
quote: ... depending upon how you frame the question and what you are testing, sure it is.
quote: That's funny. It honestly is part of the version I was taught.
quote: The way I see it. This is precisely how god got created. But this bit about the invisible workshop I am culling from my childhood.
quote: No, I haven't. But God, an active God anyway, should leave imprints.
quote: No. I am telling you what makes sense to me.
quote: The basic god-stuff. Heal the sick, for example. And it ought to be detectable via careful statistical analysis. It isn't that hard to dream up a test, but since we'd be testing god... well, he wouldn't perform.
quote: If it were not for that little catch about not being able to test god, then I'd say it would be falsifiable.
quote: That could theoretically be detected doesn't lead directly to this conclusion, but it would help. If God were actually detected it would help a lot.
quote: Sure. Absolutely. If we can test for God and if the test is positive, then jump right into that testing for ID. I'm not worried though, the whole scenario is based on a very big if.
quote: Well then let it make predictions and lets test them. If it could do this, regardless of anything else concerning God, I'd consider it science. If the tests fail, though, we have to consider it wrong.
quote: The whole edifice rests on the answer to this question. So you can argue that ID needs to be called science. OK. Fine. If it makes good predictions, I'll repent and convert. If not, then its bad science anyway.
quote: I don't know why you are so happy about that.
quote: Then in fact, you are saying it is distiguishable from coincidence. Which is it?
quote: Of course, I have the feeling that you will rationalize any coincidence into evidence. But you are wrong about me. I would pay attention to extraodinary.
quote: If I watch a leg grow back I assure you I would not attribute it to 'natural' causes. There are cases that would convince me, and they are probably not as wild as you imagine.
quote: George Berkeley held a similar belief to this. I like Berkeley. Terrible writer though. Dull like you wouldn't believe.
quote: Sorry. No. My beliefs are quite falsifiable.
quote: It should all come out in the statistics. But you load the dice with the idea that God permiates everything and that it all could be God's work. That is unfalsifiable. Even in theory.
quote: I hold nothing for which I cannot imagine a falsification. Nor do I attibute everything to natural causes. I attribute a lot to undefined.
quote: Please try to understand that I do not take what you say as gospel. It was in this post that you introduced the god-permiated universe idea. That is the only model that gets past those analogies. So drop the attitude.
quote: Do you really have this much trouble with comprehension? You seem to flying off on tangents quite a bit, mixing and matching cause and effect. The question is simple. You criticise me for voicing my opinion of your religion. A religion which I see as intrusive into my life ( primarily because it gets written into law and nobody notices or cares ). If the situation were reversed, what would you do? ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Yeah. This is an example illustrating why I am confused about gene's insistence that one must earn faith. I really can't a handle on that. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Yes. The idea is heavily imbedded in jewish mysticism, of which I am quite fond. The idea is also a part of numerous world religions-- Taoism comes to mind, for example.
quote: You don't. The concept becomes unfalsifiable. The argument works equaly well for any god you plug into the blank, hence it pretty muchs negates itself. The question becomes "Which God?" Again, and unanswerable question.
quote: Though you desperately want this argument to require the assumption that there is nothing outside of sensory experience, it does not require that assumption. Assume that you construct an argument with five premises-- the only ones you've got. You don't have to assume that no other premises exist. You build your argument based on what you've got.
quote: LOL... you see it as a victory. I see it as the destruction of all human knowledge. At the very best, the idea that everything is faith-based puts every opinion, no matter how bizarre, on the same level. I have been aware of this since my second year phil classes. You can't, so far as I know, bootstrap your way out of this pit and into an firm knowledge of any kind.
quote: Fine, but this contradicts what you have previously asserted.
quote: How often do you need this answer repeated, gene? Are you ignoring my answers on purpose? I have repeatedly stated my position and you have repeatedly made the same misrepresentation. It only makes you look like you are up to something dishonest. I hope this isn't the case, but why else would you repeatedly claim that I maintain something exactly the opposite of what I have repeatedly stated?
quote: You need to brush up on your fallacies. You provide an argument, which I consider faulty. You ASSERT that your argument is correct and then claim that it is argument from incredulity that I don't take your word for it? Are you really that arrogant?
quote: Gene, I don't care if they are called actual sciences or not. Whatever you call them, neither has a case.
quote: A significant repeatable deviation from chance that can be correlated with a particular religion-- prayer, sacrifice, whatever-- would go a long way toward convincing me that the adherents of that religion knew something not known to science. I suppose you could always claim that there is no way to prove that it is really god, so in that sense, I suppose you are right. But I'll accept the some margins of error. I don't see that there is any choice, no matter what the subject. However, if one resists the urge to continue moving the goal posts of what god is backwards, we ought to be able to infer something like a God. For example, one could infer the Hebrew God by demonstrating the earth to be 6000 years old, or by demonstrating the Global Flood, or by demonstrating that slaughtering a dove cures leprosy. But since these tests fail, the goal posts get moved back.
quote: Yes. And this is odd to me, knowing as you do that unverifiable theories are pretty useless.
quote: I don't care really. Calling it a science doesn't give it any more data than the none it already doesn't have.
quote: Because, gene, I don't claim to have falsified God. I claim that there is no evidence for God.
quote: Seems to me that every experiment that shows an identifiable cause that isn't god is a test that god failed. Of course, defined as you define God, every effect is God, or God's doing. And it just becomes a mind game. I could say that Scotty the Blue Bunnyis an incarnation of this force and have it be as convincing.
quote: Fair enough.
quote: I tolerate. I don't like and I don't have to like.
quote: Yes. Though I happen to think that for all of its faults the US is still the best bet. Sometimes I wonder though.
quote: No, it doesn't. But I don't judge individuals and don't form opinions about people until I know them. Frankly, this trait has caused me more trouble than good. I tend to give bad people too much lee-way.
quote: This means I must not protest? I'm not buying that logic.
quote: Don't know really. But I doubt it, because it isn't the shrines or cathedrals that bother me. It is the people exhibiting the dominant behaviors and attitudes associated with the dominant religion. It is no different from criticing communism or fascism, except that you probably consider those things harmful and consider your faith beneficial. I consider all three harmful ( in practise, at least ). ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Well, strangely enough, I'm siding with you guys on this one. The idea of earning faith just makes no sense to me. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: It is your point that belief in God is unfalsifiable? Fine. How does this help?
quote: Fine. I don't understand why you feel it necessary to make this point.
quote: The ASSUMPTION prevents the argument from being faulty? That is absurd. An argument is a self-contained system. The conclusion follows from the premises, or it doesn't. But ASSUMING that the ARGUMENT IS CORRECT-- which is exactly what you your statement equates to-- has no bearing on this. 1) if A then B2) A 3) therefore B. Do you assume that there is no not-B out there? Or a not-(if A then B)? NO!!!! #3 follows from #1 and #2. That's it. You are warping common sense and logic pretty far with this one.
quote: I am not turning it into positive evidence. YOU ARE TURNING IT INTO POSITIVE EVIDENCE and calling it my claim. I have repeatedly corrected you on this. How many times do I have to repeat that? Respectfully, when did you become this dense?
quote: I know that was a joke. That just has to be a joke.
quote: Don't you mean that the other way around? At any rate, I disagree.
quote: Then you disagree based on your your own fantasies. You have no idea how I treat the people around around me.
quote: Tolerance is about letting people live there lives. I bother no one unless bothered first. Come down off your pulpit.
quote: Religion is a concept, a philosophy, whether you like it or not. Its tenants are fair game, whether you like it or not. You sound just a half step from supporting censorship, gene. Is that your plan?
quote: Intolerance as I have demonstrated? Have I assulted anyone on the street? Censored any books? Burned any churches? Sponsored any legislation to get Christians thrown to the lions? Nope. So drop it. You hate having your religion turned on the spit. Tough. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: This is similar to how I have always understood it to work. Christian sects quibble about the earning salvation part though. Gene, as far as I can remember, is the first person I have heard claim that faith has to be earned. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Gene, I have to just drop this because you are stubbornly refusing to listen to what I say. I can do no more. I have corrected this misstatement on your part half a dozen times now.
quote: Funny. You must have missed the other dozen times I have said that I claim there is no evidence for God, but not that there is positive evidence against.
quote: Technically, opposition to religion isn't necessarily opposition to God. Religion is a human endeavor, or can be considered such.
quote: Where did you buy your blinders, gene? There a hell of lot I'd rather not see.
quote: Despite your stubborn repetition, it isn't my argument. What you have spent so much time fighting is something you have made up. I have corrected you numerous times, yet you refuse to correct your misunderstanding? I won't say what that does to you credibility. Tell me, gene, who knows what I believe with greater accuracy, you or me?
quote: I have already stated it yet agian in this thread, but I am quite confident that you will ignote that restatement once again.
quote: You cited the Bible. That is fallacious and irrelevant on so many levels I don't know where to begin.
quote: The argument isn't reversable. If it is it becomes a tautology and that isn't an argument but a definition-- ie a "Gene says so."
quote: You've become WORSE than Nos. At least Nos had a better sense of humor. If I'm going to have to tolerate offensive and ridiculous comments from you that duck the points and contribute nothing to the debate, please at least make them amusing to read.
quote: duh.... obviously!!!
quote: Gee, speech is bad ????? You are becoming a fine little censor. I don't like what the KKK has to say and most of it is easily dismantled, but stopping SPEECH is not something I support. Guess we differ substantially like that. By the way, you seem to have no problem stereotyping when it comes to the KKK. I happen to think christianity is every bit as horrible. Do I stop Christian speech? Nope. I respond in kind. But like I said, we are different like that. You are, by the way, illustrating exactly why I have such a problem with your faith. Thanks. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: You must presuppose that there is a God. I do not have to presuppose the opposite. I can work with what evidence exists. I DO NOT have to presuppose that no other evidence exists. I can work with what is known, unlike you, who must assume something that isn't known.
quote:quote: The arrogance of this statement is staggering. No wonder you don't pay attention. You already know what I think.
quote: Assuming you way out of it isn't the same thing as bootstrapping your way out. I can make any one of a thousand assumptions and get out. MAKING UP STUFF IS EASY.
quote: Its obvious that you are building straw men. That is the only way that what you are saying makes any sense.
quote: Nope. More of Gene's fantasy.
quote: I DON'T HAVE A BELIEF IN NO-GOD. I HAVE NO REASON FOR A BELIEF IN GOD. It isn't the same thing. Do you have a belief in no-PlanetX, or do you have no reason to believe in PlanetX? Do you have a belief in no-extraterestrial life, or do you have no reason ( I assume ) to believe in extra-terrestrial life? The two claims are not the same, Gene. This is truly getting absurd.
quote: Like bloody hell.
quote: Though the term doesn't fit.
quote: Again you object to speech. You object to my having an different opinion than you. You object to my expressing that opinion. I happen to think the KKK is nightmarish and that Satanists are idiots. I happen to think that Crowley's followers are psychotic and that Crowley himself was insane, but with a spark of brilliance that occasionally came thorugh. I think environmentalists are blinded by their own dogmas and that that tobacco companies are murderous. Are you going to fault me for that? Really, you must, to be consistent. And perhaps you will, to maintain your pose. But the truth is that this isn't about fairness, truth, justice, freedom, and the American way. It is about Gene not liking his religion criticised.
quote: Like falsely accusing a stranger of pedophilia? Like insisting that ideas be censored cause they hurt Gene's feelings? Like resorting to personal attacks? Yeah, I suck.
quote:quote: The funny bit is that Gene can criticise an organization he dislikes, but refuses to allow the criticism of organizations he likes. You never told me where you bought those blinders? ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com [This message has been edited by John, 12-13-2002]
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John Inactive Member |
Chara's post seems to be missing.
It was post #182, though now this one has that number. Chara, did you erase it? ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com [This message has been edited by John, 12-13-2002]
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I do not claim that there is evidence that there is no GOD. Jesus Christ, Gene !!!!!! I keep telling you what I believe and you keep stating the exact opposite. What kind of rationality is that? What kind of good faith effort at debate is that?
quote: BLOODY HELL... I said way back in post #43-- a response to you no less-- that I am technically agnostic. Wanna see?
I have said numerous times on this forum that I am technically agnostic. I see no evidence for god. quote: Your opinions hardly matter to me anymore, after this dose of the holy spirit. And now that I understand that being a bigot means "not agreeing with gene" it has kinda lost its bite.
quote: Excuse me, did I start this by saying GENE IS SOMETHING_OFFENSIVE? Nope. You imported the insults because you didn't like what I had to say about your post. You violated the rules of the board and basic common sense rules behavior. I didn't fill your name into the blanks and start spouting garbage. Whatever I may think of your religion, I did not bring it into this debate and I did not run you through a rumor mill. You did both. I treated you like I treat everybody. I built an opinion of you based on, in your case, how you respond to my comments here on this board. I'd have done the same if we met in person.
quote: You have a real problem distinguishing between the general and the specific. Not to mention that problem you have of doing precisely what you don't want others doing.
quote: You never answered my question. If I attacked the Church of Satan or the KKK, would you object? Or do you only get on your moral hobby-horse when someone criticises what Gene approves of? What about abortion? Is that an appropriate topic? May I criticise abortion clinic protesters? Alcohol manufacturers? Drug dealers? I don't know them either. Maybe you could post Gene's list of appropriate topics for criticism? Or maybe not. You've avoided the question twice now. Probably because you don't object to the criticism of groups like the KKK, or the Satanists; but you know that makes you damned hypocritical.
quote: Talk about flip-flopping flexible standards!!! Two wrongs make a right. You did it so I can too!!!!!!! LOL........ This is you justification for your lies and slander? !!!!!! ???????? And you object to my negative attitudes about christianity. LOLLLLLLLLLLLL.......... ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: It doesn't matter why he does it. For whatever reason god punishes, the act of punishing serves to prod people into servitude. Hence, the claim that it is servitude of your own free will is tainted by the threat of punishment. If you wife slept with another man, would you be mad? Prolly. But if that other man held her at gunpoint? See the difference. God has us at gunpoint.
quote:quote: Then you have conflated different arguments, and misunderstood at least one of them. You don't effect your cat's free will because you knowledge is not absolute. God's knowledge, in theory, is abolute and infallible.
quote: Ummmm .... me too.
quote: So you say. But I experienced the very same thing and you are desperately trying to argue that I didn't. Shall I argue that you didn't experience it either? I don't have to really. Any rationalization you have for my experience works for your as well. That is the problem.
quote: As is what happened to you, in relation to the word of God.
quote: The same way you equate the feeling you got from the NT ( or the preacher, or whatever ) with a change brought about by God.
quote: You don't know that. You have to believe it, but you don't know it. When I read that book, scales fell from my eyes. Or so I felt. I was floating on air for weeks and convinced, devoted even, for years. Even now, the core idea of that book is firmly entrenched in my being. I am also the first to admit that the man was largely insane, but that is another story. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Coulda been ruled out long ago if you had bothered to read my posts.
quote: I can think of a third. (3) My position is based on what information actually exists and not on what information might exist. My arguments rest upon what evidence actually exists, not on what evidence might exist. Your insistence that I must postulate negatives is just silly. Maybe I'll also postulate that there are no invisible aliens pushing down on our heads and thereby simulating gravity. I'd never finish writing the argument because there would always be another negative to postulate.
quote: If (3) is correct, and it is, then I have no worries.
quote: No kidding? Funny I have been saying this all along.
quote: So you say. Guess I should have asked permission, eh? "God" does not equate to "belief system"
quote: Incidentally, this matters why?
quote: Come now Gene, bet you never called them pedophiles either? Of course you continually gloss over the fact that I have not been disrespectful to you on this board. Whatever I may think of your religion, I have not attacked you for it.
quote: No need, as your are so bad.
quote: Glad you finally admit that it does boil down to what gene likes and what gene doesn't like. I do see something profoundly evil in christianity. Oops.... I forgot. Gene doesn't like that sort of talk ( unless it is directed against a Gene-approved target ).
quote: Sorry, but you are not paying attention to the world around you.
quote: More slander, gene? Couldn't resist one more cheap shot? God tell you I hate minorities, because I damn sure didn't?
quote: Wow. Gene asserts that he's right!!!!! Stop the presses.
quote: Of course not. You are part of it. Where did you get those blinders? You never said.
quote: Gimme some a that holy spirit!!!!!!!! ------------------
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