God says this, and God says that

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The fact that you can access it is the reason the analogy is faulty.

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I'm talking about the money when it's in the vault. What happens when it leaves the vault is irrelevant to the analogy. But fine: when the bank closes at night and you can't access it does the money cease to exist? After all, you cannot check it.

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I

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Yes. You. I wasn't talking about you.

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I insist that your view of what is inside the box is unfounded, not wrong, and that the fact that it is unfounded is sufficient to make it unreasonable.

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How is "unfounded" equated with "unreasonable"? If I claim that there's a rock in that box in the museum, my claim is unfounded. But that doesn't make it unreasonable. It only becomes unreasonable if you presuppose that there are no rocks anywhere, that they do not exist. What is "reasonable" and what is not is at least partially based upon worldview and what you already believe or disbelieve. Theism and atheism are both unfalsifiable because there is no evidence for or against God. And an agnostic who claims that Christianity is wrong is an internal contradiction and inconsistent.

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It most certainly has the ability to spread, but it is actually stronger because it is not based upon what faith you may or may not have.

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That's a valid argument, however humanistic morals are still 'optional', as whether or not you follow them the outcome is still the same.

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Well, that should tell you something.

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Well yeah it does tell me something and you're not going to like what it tells me.

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No, I am stating that people leave the church because they were made miserable while they were in it.

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I don't know about that. I've heard that some congregations are 'cold' but I'm glad I joined.

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...or that I know a bit of what I am talking about.

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Of that, I'm not sure. But I do know you did this 'research' for a reason. And I'm fairly sure I know why. You're out on a vendetta against the LDS church.

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So, does the church ever let outside scholars study the historical documents?

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We publish a lot of the documents as History of the Church. I don't know how the system works beyond that.

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Also, since the Church is a church, and not an academic institution, why couldn't the records have been altered over time?

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As I said, the claim is unfalsifiable. Also, as I've said, you'll say just about anything to justify your position, won't you? Including unfounded accusations of intellectual dishonesty?By the way, I didn't know we had secrets.[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-16-2002]

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Even if you deny that, it would be very hard to avoid society.

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Still, you could be a hermit or a fugitive.

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Right, and when God's law includes slaughtering sinners the executioner cannot be blamed either.

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If Christianity theology is correct, is it wrong for God to kill sinners?

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Wait. Aren't you anti-stereotype Gene?

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No, I'm stating fact. Non-theists only have to live the laws of their country. Christians are supposed to go further than that, help people and not lust and that sort of thing.If I were to say that atheists were "stupid", "evil", or "dishonest" that would be an opinion.And another thing. Quoting myself:

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Bit religious people generally have morals that non-theists do not.

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I said "generally". I allow lots of exceptions. Unlike the intolerant claims on your website.

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If lack of evidence for God is sufficient, how can lack of evidence be used in argument?

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Yes. I see that is a tautology.I'll try again to make my point:If lack of evidence for God is sufficient for an atheist to claim there are no gods (no religion is correct), how can an atheist criticize Christianity for its lack of evidence, and be consistent?

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And your analogy is not like the claim made by religion about God.

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????Just like God the money in the bank is not generating any evidence you can detect with the senses. Therefore, if a lack of evidence is sufficient to disbelieve God, then a lack of evidence is sufficient for you to avoid investing in banks. Or else you are inconsistent.

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Sure it does. You pulled it out of thin air.

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That sounds tautological to me. "Anything unfounded is unreasonable", therefor if the rock is unfounded it is unreasonable.I disagree.(From Merriam-Webster OnLine, Dictionary by Merriam-Webster: America's most-trusted online dictionary )reasonable: being in accordance with reason b : not extreme or excessive

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I see nothing "extreme" or "excessive" about a rock sitting in that box. Therefore I disagree with "unfounded"="unreasonable".

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If I hadn't been outside yet today and I guessed the sun were up by now that guess would be unfounded by observation. But it would not be unreasonable. Plus it is loaded to call something "reasonable" or "unreasonable" because it is an appeal to your worldview, not to logic.

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It is quite difficult to live completely outside of society.

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But not impossible. And even within a social structure, if I am able to escape the law of the land then there is no reason for me to have any morals at all (without God). Therefore, morals are not absolute. Do you believe that morals change when you move from one country to another?

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If not, then God is bound by morality, not the other way around.

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An interesting (and feasible) theological perspective.

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The following is a link to an extensive list of sex abuse incidences put out by a progressive Epicopalian website.

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Sex abuse is inevitable in any large organizations, people (even ministers) aren't perfect.However this does not support your claim that religious people are responsible for more sex offenses. It merely shows that it happens. Plus even the relative number of offenses per denomination is irrelevant because each denomination is not the same size.[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-16-2002]

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Can you explain how you got to "therefore" from the previous statements? I'm confused.

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She assumes God is unknowable therefore all religions are false.Her problem is not that she turns a lack of evidence into positive evidence that there is no God (as the atheist does) but that she turns a lack of evidence into positive evidence that God (by definition) is unknowable. Same fallacy, minor distinction.

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The fact that you cannot even consider the possibility that someone might have been mistreated, even though there are probably thousands of personal stories to that effect out there, is beyond all comprehension.

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Strawman.I don't reject the possibility. I even admitted that some congregations aren't what they should be.

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I don't have a vendetta

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Despite the circumstantial evidence that you do? You have a motive, and you admit to spending a disproportionate amount of time researching LDS beliefs, and you spend a disproportionate number of posts debating against LDS theology.All in all, I think that strongly indicates a vendetta.

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There could be evidence of editing, or not.

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Such as?

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All of the temple ceremonies are supposed to be secret.

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Sacred, not secret. If they were secret we wouldn't send people knocking on doors trying to get them to qualify to attend the temple.

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John Smith

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Joseph Smith.

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here in Vermont

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No, though he was born in Vermont he moved to Palmyra NY at a young age. There was the source of the plates.

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which he then translated behind a curtain while his wife wrote it down....

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I'm not sure about the curtain part. Also, Oliver Cowdery served as scribe as well.

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Did anyone else see these slabs?

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Yes. Eleven people actually. Three saw them with angels and whole works. Their testimony can be found on the first pages of The Book of Mormon. Of course you can reject their testimony because they were all "Mormons", even though after Smith was murdered by a mob some of them left the church but never denied what they saw.Then you have Smith himself who spent months in prison and was murdered without denying his beliefs. But of course LDS and even Christiendom itself aren't the only belief systems with martyrs.

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Are they around for us to look at?

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No, they went back to where they belong for safe keeping.

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Is there anyway of verifying that they ever exsisted?

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You'd have to be very creative. But it was never my point that this church or any other could be "proven" correct.

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anything else providing you don`t attempt to harm others and leave me free to form my own opinions

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I think that's a very respectful position, and logically consistent as well.

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Absolutely false. There is a great deal of social pressure to behave in certain ways.

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But if morals are defined by society then morals are not absolute and can change. For example, in Afghanistan in 1998, it was "moral" to deny women an education.Plus, social pressure is irrelevant if you "sin" in secret. If you evade the law and hide from society then you have no need for morals.

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No, morals are not absolute.

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If you insist...

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such as sex abuse, would be lower in the religious community, not higher.

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Should be, assuming other factors are not skewing the data (culture, geography, competence of law enforcement, poverty, etc)

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My above statement still stands.

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Fair enough. I don't know how to falsify it.

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I don't know if God exists

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I find that respectable and sound.[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-16-2002]

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Maybe you're reading too much into this.

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Could be. I wonder whenever we get into this debate but I really don't know.

No, not bad at all.[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-17-2002]

Yeah, I know ultraconservative Catholics, for example, that reject evolution.