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Author Topic:   Did Jesus do anything original?
Karl
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 30 (27159)
12-18-2002 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by funkmasterfreaky
12-18-2002 3:42 AM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
I agree Jesus was a normal infant baby, minus the normal conception, (imo). However Satan would have destroyed this infant were it not for the army of heaven that accompanied him to this earth. He was defended.


There's no mention of this host when Herod started his campaign of slaughter. Instead, the Holy Family had to scarper to Egypt.

How exactly do you think Satan would have "destroyed" this infant?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-18-2002 3:42 AM funkmasterfreaky has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-18-2002 6:26 AM Karl has not yet responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 30 (27160)
12-18-2002 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Karl
12-18-2002 6:23 AM


Maybe it was the captain of the host who instructed Joseph to take his family and flee to Egypt? Sometimes that's the best strategy is to to get out of the enemies territory.

There are many ways satan could have destroyed this infant, I don't even doubt that he tried. What do you think prompted Herod to take the course of action he did?

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Karl, posted 12-18-2002 6:23 AM Karl has not yet responded

  
Karl
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 30 (27199)
12-18-2002 9:44 AM


I would have thought the fear of being deposed by a grass roots movement centred around a perceived Messiah.
Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Quetzal, posted 12-19-2002 1:22 AM Karl has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3003 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 19 of 30 (27245)
12-18-2002 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by zipzip
12-16-2002 8:47 PM


quote:
Originally posted by zipzip:
Are you joking? If we take what you say as givens, he:

1) Fulfilled several thousand years of prophecy
2) Was born of a virgin birth
3) Taught reverse social order, where king is servant
4) Actually was God and participated in creation of the universe
5) Had supernatural powers including miraculous healing powers
6) Died for your sins
7) Rose from the dead having conquered the power of sin and death
8) Appeared to all his followers many times following his resurrection
9) Is seated at the right hand of the throne of God

C'mon.


Hi zipzip,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

The question was did Jesus do or say anything ORIGINAL?

The examples you provided are not original to Jesus, they have all been claimed by other Gods, or their followers, long before Jesus was born as a man.

1. Many Greek myths tell of fulfilled prophecies, or one from the Old testament, such as Jael proves that Jesus wasn't the first person to fulfill a prophecy.

2. Virgin births are ten a penny pre-jesus, Buddha, Attis and Tammuz are other examples, I think even Alexander the Great was credited with a virgin birth as well.

3. This was taught by gautama Buddha 600 years before anyone knew anything about Jesus.

4. This is a basic claim by many Gods, 3000 years before Jesus came to earth the Hindus claimed that Brahman created the universe.

5. Much the same as answer to 4, these are basic attributes of Gods. Krishna performed many miracles. for example, one night when there was a full moon full moon sixteen hundred gopis assembled, and the miracle of Krishna was performed when he appeared as a separate Krishna to each gopi, and all of them danced with their beloved Lord at one and the same time.

6. Again saviour Gods are ten a penny pre-Jesus days, read the stories of Osiris, Dionysius, Bel, and Mithra.

7. There are numerous stories of resurrected Gods, Mithra is an example of this again 400 years before Jesus claimed it. Even Pythagoras was believed to have risen from the dead.

8. All resurrected gods claim this, Krisna is still appearing to his follwers in the avatar of Sai Baba (not all his followers claim this though).

9. This is also claimed by a much earlier source, the Hindu Trinity (Bramah, Shiva and Vishnu, all one God in three forms)goes back thousands of years before Christ.

So we are really looking at Jesus copying things that other people or gods done long before him.

There must be something original somewhere in his life surely!
Then again maybe not.

Best Wishes.

Brian.

------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

[This message has been edited by Brian Johnston, 12-18-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by zipzip, posted 12-16-2002 8:47 PM zipzip has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-18-2002 4:19 PM Brian has not yet responded
 Message 22 by zipzip, posted 12-20-2002 7:56 PM Brian has responded

    
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 30 (27248)
12-18-2002 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Brian
12-18-2002 3:58 PM


Not sure about this one it's a guess, but did anyone else teach the reverse kingdom idea. The idea that king is servant.

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Brian, posted 12-18-2002 3:58 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 3916 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 21 of 30 (27304)
12-19-2002 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Karl
12-18-2002 9:44 AM


A Jewish Che Guevara or Agusto Sandino?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Karl, posted 12-18-2002 9:44 AM Karl has not yet responded

  
zipzip
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 30 (27533)
12-20-2002 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Brian
12-18-2002 3:58 PM


The basis of your question was if the Gospels were in fact true, what did Jesus do that was original.

If the Gospels are true, Jesus really did all these things in actual fact, unlike myth -- that is original and I stand by my post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Brian, posted 12-18-2002 3:58 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-20-2002 7:59 PM zipzip has not yet responded
 Message 24 by Brian, posted 12-21-2002 3:00 AM zipzip has not yet responded
 Message 26 by John, posted 12-21-2002 10:28 AM zipzip has not yet responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 30 (27534)
12-20-2002 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by zipzip
12-20-2002 7:56 PM


quote:
Originally posted by zipzip:
The basis of your question was if the Gospels were in fact true, what did Jesus do that was original.

If the Gospels are true, Jesus really did all these things in actual fact, unlike myth -- that is original and I stand by my post.


Amen. I will stand by that post with you.

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by zipzip, posted 12-20-2002 7:56 PM zipzip has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3003 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 24 of 30 (27578)
12-21-2002 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by zipzip
12-20-2002 7:56 PM


quote:
Originally posted by zipzip:
The basis of your question was if the Gospels were in fact true, what did Jesus do that was original.

If the Gospels are true, Jesus really did all these things in actual fact, unlike myth -- that is original and I stand by my post.


The point I am making is this.

We didnt know that Jesus had done any of these things until he claimed them 2000 years ago. However, ALL these claims had been made before, long before Jesus was born on Earth as a man. He still didn't do or say anything that hadnt been said or done before. Jesus didnt come up with some mind blowing ideas, man had already thought them all up long before Jesus revealed himself to mankind.

SO the FACTS remain

Jesus was NOT the first person to fulfill a prophecy.
Jesus was NOT the first virgin birth
Jesus was NOT the first person to teach reverse social order
Jesus was NOT the first person to claim to be God and participate in the creation of the universe.
Jesus was not the first person to have supernatural and healing powers
Jesus was not the first 'Saviour' God
Jesus was not the first person to rise from the dead
Jesus was not the first person to appear after his death to his followers.
Jesus is not the first person to claim to be sat at God's right hand.

All these have been claimed earlier by many many faiths, whether Jesus actually did these things is neither here nor there, the fact remains he did not come up with any original ideas.

Look at it this way, if you asked anyone in Palestine 3000 years ago who created the universe you would have got many different answers and Jesus would NOT have been one of them. It was only after he was born that people knew about him and the NT has nothing in it (re Jesus) that hasnt been said and done before

------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by zipzip, posted 12-20-2002 7:56 PM zipzip has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-21-2002 6:31 AM Brian has not yet responded

    
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 30 (27582)
12-21-2002 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Brian
12-21-2002 3:00 AM


who preached reverse "social order" before Jesus?

Question 2 why is there so many versions of this, why do so many people believe? How come just about every culture knows of some form of God?

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Brian, posted 12-21-2002 3:00 AM Brian has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 30 (27592)
12-21-2002 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by zipzip
12-20-2002 7:56 PM


quote:
Originally posted by zipzip:
The basis of your question was if the Gospels were in fact true, what did Jesus do that was original.

If the Gospels are true, Jesus really did all these things in actual fact, unlike myth -- that is original and I stand by my post.


If..... you argument is "IF...." ?

If the Gospels were not true, then Jesus didn't really do all these things. Ooops! Stalemate.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by zipzip, posted 12-20-2002 7:56 PM zipzip has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by shilohproject, posted 12-21-2002 4:18 PM John has responded

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 30 (27600)
12-21-2002 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by John
12-21-2002 10:28 AM


John, et al,
For you, would the action/statement have to be "original" to be important, or could the context of a tried-and-true expression make it valuable and meaningful in a way that sets it apart from any previous example?
-Shiloh
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by John, posted 12-21-2002 10:28 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by John, posted 12-21-2002 5:54 PM shilohproject has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 30 (27606)
12-21-2002 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by shilohproject
12-21-2002 4:18 PM


quote:
Originally posted by shilohproject:
John, et al,
For you, would the action/statement have to be "original" to be important, or could the context of a tried-and-true expression make it valuable and meaningful in a way that sets it apart from any previous example?-Shiloh

A statement wouldn't have to be original to be important. It would have to be original to set the religion apart from all others in a meaningful way.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by shilohproject, posted 12-21-2002 4:18 PM shilohproject has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by shilohproject, posted 12-21-2002 9:13 PM John has responded

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 30 (27613)
12-21-2002 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by John
12-21-2002 5:54 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
Originally posted by shilohproject:
John, et al,
For you, would the action/statement have to be "original" to be important, or could the context of a tried-and-true expression make it valuable and meaningful in a way that sets it apart from any previous example?-Shiloh

A statement wouldn't have to be original to be important. It would have to be original to set the religion apart from all others in a meaningful way.


John,
Perhaps you have accidentally brushed up against one of my foundational beliefs: It is the commonalities of the faithful that give us the best chance to see the nature God, regardless of their "religion," denomination, place of worship, where they face during prayer, how they see infant baptism or communion or prayer rags or poverty, etc.

I doubt that God is unable to speak Chinese.

-Shiloh


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by John, posted 12-21-2002 5:54 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by John, posted 12-21-2002 10:34 PM shilohproject has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 30 (27618)
12-21-2002 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by shilohproject
12-21-2002 9:13 PM


quote:
Originally posted by shilohproject:
It is the commonalities of the faithful that give us the best chance to see the nature God, regardless of their "religion," denomination, place of worship, where they face during prayer, how they see infant baptism or communion or prayer rags or poverty, etc.

Religion is certainly a repository of culture, philosophy, and other similar things. As such, studying and comparing religions is a useful endeavor.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by shilohproject, posted 12-21-2002 9:13 PM shilohproject has not yet responded

  
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