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Author | Topic: Another Test for Intelligent Design Proponents | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Umm...maybe because there is no natural selection nor "random choice" [sic] involved with the puzzle scenario? -
quote: That's unfortunate for your friends, since useful mutations have been observed. Google "nylon bug" and "hemoglobin C". -
quote: Are you sure about this? Look up the law of mass action; you will find that in any mixture of chemicals in equilibrium both reactants and products will be present in some non-zero amount. So, if there are amino acids present, one would expect some polymers to be present as well. -- Added by edit: Speaking of looking things up, have you read up on the Urey/Miller experiments yet? You seem to have a habit of making serious errors of fact without acknowledging your mistakes. This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 08-Feb-2006 04:40 AM "Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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inkorrekt Member (Idle past 6110 days) Posts: 382 From: Westminster,CO, USA Joined: |
For amino acids to form proteins a preformed cellular architechture is necessary. For example, your computer must have all the components in place for it to function. If something is missing, you cannot have anything working. So, in the cell, the enzymes must be there with all cofactors and other necessary elements for protein synthesis to occur.
In Nature, you have 2 forms of amino acids. One is the L-form. Which is biologically active. The D-form is abiological poison. The mixture has equal parts of these 2 forms. So. they do not work. The D-form will will inhibit any further activity. Chemical sysnthesis cannot occur at random. Only certain groups will react and others will not. For protein sysnthesis to occur,. all 20 amino acids must exist. Certain groups have to be protected.There is also another phenomenon known as Steric hindrance which does not allow any chemical to react with anything else. It is more complex than what you think. Unless you are a chemist, it is hard to understand why it cannot happen.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: This is false. First, simply by the law of mass action, if you have a solution that includes amino acids there will be a few polypeptides as well. Second, catalysts to this reaction that do not involve preformed cellular architecture. --
quote: Funny, but free oxygen is also a poison to life. Yet there is free oxygen, and there is life. -
quote: This is false. Polypeptides can consist of only a single amino acid. -
quote: Actually, you don't seem to know much about chemistry yourself. "Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
Inkorrekt writes: For example, your computer must have all the components in place for it to function. Incorrect, inkorrekt: my computer needs a minimum set of components present to perform a given function; that minimum varies depending on what function I want it to perform. I can pull the grapical display, the floppy, the CD drive, the keyboard, mouse, serial port, parallel port, USB ports, sound card, most of the memory, etc., and still have my computer start and perform useful functions.
It is more complex than what you think. Your analogy makes the same sort of mistaken assumptions as your argument. "Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?" -Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night Save lives! Click here!Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC! ---------------------------------------
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
In Nature, you have 2 forms of amino acids. One is the L-form. Which is biologically active. The D-form is abiological poison. The mixture has equal parts of these 2 forms. So. they do not work. The D-form will will inhibit any further activity. Right. When you have an equal mix of both, that's called a "racemic" mixture. But natural, inorganic processes exist that can seperate the one from the other. So amino handedness isn't really an obstacle to abiogenesis.
The D-form will will inhibit any further activity. Well, only in a living thing that is developing L-handed proteins. Now, granted, that's every living thing on Earth, but there's no reason you couldn't have an organisms based on mirror-image chemistry, using d-handed aminos to make d-handed proteins. It's rather arbitrary, in fact. The fact that all living things share this mostly arbitrary handedness is a powerful evidence for common ancestry.
For protein sysnthesis to occur,. all 20 amino acids must exist. Well, that's not true. Functional protiens can be assembled from a "palette" limited to as little as 8 different amino acids.
Unless you are a chemist, it is hard to understand why it cannot happen. What makes you think we're not chemists? What makes you think I don't have a whole shelf of graduate-level biochem texts sitting on my bookshelf?
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Parasomnium Member Posts: 2224 Joined: |
inkorrekt writes: I have a very difficult time believing this. Yet you have no problem believing in an intelligent designer, for which there is no reason to be introduced, nor any evidence, and which just raises more questions than it answers.
When I think about random chance, mutations and natuiral selections only 2 things come into my mind. I'm sorry for you. When I think about random mutation and natural selection, a myriad things come to my mind. I guess we have different minds.
1) If random choice and natural selection is observable, why is it that I could never observe the pieces of a puzzle self assemble themselves? If the force of gravity is observable, then why is it I never see my keyboard jump off of the table by itself? Because that would be magic, that's why. And magic isn't covered by the theory of gravity. Nor is it covered by the theory of evolution. So please stop making such outrageous comparisons if you want to be taken seriously.
2) My friends have performed controlled mutations on the fruit fly,Drosphila Melanogaster. Even after millions of mutations, they have not found one useful mutant. I think you are not saying what you meant to say. Am I to believe that your friends have the capability to actively cause a mutation of their choice in the genome of a fruit fly? I think you meant to say that your friends just let fruit flies mate and waited to see what variations appeared, right? And "millions of mutations"? Your friends are very patient people, I must say. Anyway, what were your friends expecting? What were their criteria for the usefulness of a mutation? Can you cite their research please, or give us a link to it?
3) Why is it that amino acids do not self assemble to make proteins? Chemical evolution cannot occur. Does your search engine have some intelligently designed filter or something? There are lots of scientific papers on self-assembling peptides - even self-replicating peptides! - so why don't you chuck your ID-coloured goggles and do a bit of googling instead? This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 09-Feb-2006 12:11 PM
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Parasomnium Member Posts: 2224 Joined: |
inkorrekt writes: For amino acids to form proteins a preformed cellular architechture is necessary. No, it isn't. Google.
For example, your computer must have all the components in place for it to function. If something is missing, you cannot have anything working. Nonsense. I've owned a computer that had one if its memory chips broken and removed. It worked fine.
There is also another phenomenon known as Steric hindrance which does not allow any chemical to react with anything else. Again a case of saying something you did not mean to say. Or do you really believe that no chemical reactions take place on earth at all? Of course, I understand you didn't mean that, but I'm just pointing out that I think you should be more careful about how you phrase things.
It is more complex than what you think. Unless you are a chemist, it is hard to understand why it cannot happen. So, since you apparently do understand it, I take it you are a chemist. Are you? This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 09-Feb-2006 12:08 PM "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin. Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Parasomnium writes: inkorrekt writes: For amino acids to form proteins a preformed cellular architechture is necessary. No, it isn't. Google. To be fair to Inkorrekt, I tried to google this yesterday and came up dry. It seems a more than fair request for someone to try to support this point. The closest anyone has come was a post, I forget by who, that seemed to be saying that just by chance a solution of amino acids will form some proteins. Is that why Inkorreckt is incorrect, or is there more to it? --Percy
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Parasomnium Member Posts: 2224 Joined: |
Percy writes: I tried to google this yesterday and came up dry. My curt reply was actually a referral to my previous reply to Inkorrekt, in which I wrote:
There are lots of scientific papers on self-assembling peptides - even self-replicating peptides!- so why don't you chuck your ID-coloured goggles and do a bit of googling instead? If you google "self-assembly peptide" or "self-assembling protein" or "self-replicating protein", you should find lots of interesting links.
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inkorrekt Member (Idle past 6110 days) Posts: 382 From: Westminster,CO, USA Joined: |
This is false. First, simply by the law of mass action, if you have a solution that includes amino acids there will be a few polypeptides as well.
Second, catalysts to this reaction that do not involve preformed cellular architecture. "WELL, YOU CAN TRY THIS EXPERIMENT. YOU CAN COMBINE 2 AMINO ACID SOLUTIONS AND LEAVE THEM FOR AS LONG AS YOU WANT. THEY WILL STILL REMAIN AS AMINO ACIDS UNLESS YOU SUPPLY ENERGY AS WELL AS SOME CATALYST"-------------------------------------------------In Nature, you have 2 forms of amino acids. One is the L-form. Which is biologically active. The D-form is abiological poison. Funny, but free oxygen is also a poison to life. Yet there is free oxygen, and there is life. " YOU ARE MIXING APPLES AND ORANGES. D-AMINO ACIDS ARE ENZYME INHIBITORS. THEY DO NOT ALLOW THE REACTION IN THE BIOLOGICAL SYSTEM TO CONTINUE. HOWEVER, OXYGEN FREE RADICAL CAUSES PEROXIDATION OF LIPIDS. SUPEROXIDE DISMUTASE WILL ELIMINATE THIS IN THE LIVING CELL. CELL WILL STILL SURVIVE" For protein sysnthesis to occur,. all 20 amino acids must exist.This is false. Polypeptides can consist of only a single amino acid. "YES, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU CAN HAVE POLY GLYCINE AND POLY ASPARTIC ACID. THEY HAVE LIMITED ACTIVITIES. FOR ANY BIOLOGICAL ACTIVITY, THERE MUST BE DIVERSITY OF THE AMINO ACIDS. THE ISSUE HERE IS WHETHER SELF ASSEMBLY OF PROTEINS OCCURS OR NOT. THE ANSWER IS IT DOES NOT OCCUR" Unless you are a chemist, it is hard to understand why it cannot happen. Actually, you don't seem to know much about chemistry yourself."THANK YOU FOR THIS COMPLIMENT" DID YOU KNOW THAT HALF KNOWLEDGE ON ANYTHING IS VERY DANGEROUS? YOU CAN HAVE EXHAUSTIVE VOLUMES OF SYNTHETIC ORGANIC CHEMISTRY. THEY STILL DO NOT ANSWER THE BASIC AND SIMPLE QUESTIONS" once again, assumptions and wishfull thinking do not produce anything.Amino acids will stay as amino acids even after million years and chances are that they will be degraded. The chances of self assembly of aminot acids into proteins occuring is even less than 1 in 10 X42 (10 raised to the power of 42) which is a statistical improbability. If you believe that this is happening, that is Science fiction. Yes, it takes more faith to believe in Evolution than the believe in Intelligent Design."
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Is the use of ALL CAPS supposed to be a sign that you are an expert chemist?
Added by edit: Actually, inkorrekt, if you wanted to convince anyone that you actually know something, you can read something about the Urey/Miller experiment. Then admit that embarrassing post of yours was substantially incorrect and inform us that you now understand what the significance of that experiment really is. This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 10-Feb-2006 04:20 AM "Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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AdminWounded Inactive Member |
Dear inkorreckt,
At the moment you seem to be bringing this topic up in at least one other thread. Could you choose one thread and restrict your comments to that thread. If you agree to stick to discussing this topic there I am willing to promote Evopeach's related PNT, 'The Recurrent Problem of Chirality'. Would you be willing to restrict your discussions of this topic to that one thread instead of derailing other threads? Alternatively you might wish to put forward your own PNT. TTFN, AW *ABE* Thanks for the right codes for the threads Percy! This message has been edited by AdminWounded, 10-Feb-2006 02:11 PM
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Hi Inkorrekt,
It's hard to tell where your words end and someone else's begin. There's a page of help on the use of dBCodes here: dBCode Help. It will tell you how to do quoting. HTML is also legal in posts. --Percy
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inkorrekt Member (Idle past 6110 days) Posts: 382 From: Westminster,CO, USA Joined: |
Thank you for letting me know. Please go ahead.
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inkorrekt Member (Idle past 6110 days) Posts: 382 From: Westminster,CO, USA Joined: |
Incorrect, inkorrekt: my computer needs a minimum set of components present to perform a given function; that minimum varies depending on what function I want it to perform"
When I said all the components, I only meant basic functions(Mother board, CPU, Memory and hard drive). Even for the basic functions, you should have all the components in the right place. I only gave n analogy. All the components(basic minimum) are necessary. Even if one is missing, it does nto function. Similarly, for protein sysnthesis to occur, all the structures in the cell are necessary for biosynthetic functions.
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