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Author Topic:   Bush ceding US ports to the enemy?
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 58 of 91 (290531)
02-26-2006 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Buzsaw
02-25-2006 7:21 PM


Re: I Don't Like It
Okay buz it is time to reign in the anti-Islamic rhetoric.
You may be correct that violent factions of Islam do pay more attention to the warlike passages of the Quran, and so use an interpretation you are suggesting. But that same thing occurs in fundamentalists of all religions (most notably the monotheistic ones), and it is not proper to extrapolate that everyone within such faiths believes in those singular interpretations or that that is what their religion is about.
Islam's book, the Quran states that the ultimate goal of Islam is to conquer the world for Islam
This is a false claim, and it is easily shown to be wrong. While you quotemine some specific passages, you have conveniently left out the passages within the same section which put them in context. This section deals with the aftermath of broken pacts with muslims by Jews and Xians (and I believe pagans too), and discusses what is to come of it. Many interpret this as suggesting a temporary condition since it deals with specific treaties, and at most guidance on what happens when similar deals get broken in the future. I might add that nowhere is it suggesting that the whole world is some sort of goal to fight for.
Here are some other passages from the same section.
9:1 Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.
9:4 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
9:6 And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
9:8 How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the upper hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you ? They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse. And most of them are wrongdoers.
9:10 And they observe toward a believer neither pact nor honour. These are they who are transgressors.
9:12 And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.
9:13 Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first ? What! Fear ye them ?...
The concept that this is temporary and regional in nature, if not made clear by commentary within the quotes above are reinforced by other passages of the Quran, most notably the section devoted on what to do with disbelievers...
109:1 Say: O disbelievers!
109:2 I worship not that which ye worship;
109:3 Nor worship ye that which I worship.
109:4 And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
109:5 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
109:6 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
That's it Buz. Yes the Quran suggests all disbelievers are mistaken and headed for damnation of some kind, but that is the same for all abrahamic texts. This clearly states that disbelievers are allowed to coexist. There is no sense that they must convert or die. That is the interpretation held by many (the majority) of muslims in the world.
So let's set aside the Islam bashing (especially given what they can point to in the Bible regarding Xians and Jews) as a theological reason for rejecting this deal, and look at the practical problems of having such a deal.
Okay?

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 02-25-2006 7:21 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by arachnophilia, posted 02-27-2006 3:08 AM Silent H has not replied
 Message 62 by Tal, posted 03-02-2006 10:29 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 63 of 91 (291457)
03-02-2006 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tal
03-02-2006 10:29 AM


Re: Video
First on the Clinton thing... I would disagree with him on this if he supported the deal. As it stands he was at least calling for a security review, which was not being called for by the Bush administration.
My question is do you think this group represents a small violent faction of muslims? If so, why were these protests so vast and violent? My personal belief is that this is not a war against Islam, as some people like to believe, it is a war within Islam.
I agree that it is a war within Islam. The protests were wide and varied. Some were violent and some were not. Some were manufactured and some were not. I think the majority of muslims are not violent.
Keep in mind that this is over a cartoon.
I was threatened by an equally ludicrous crowd of Xians (including being blown up) for going to see a movie which wasn't even making fun of Xians or Xianity. So who is more outrageous? I dunno.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tal, posted 03-02-2006 10:29 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Tal, posted 03-02-2006 11:02 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 65 of 91 (291464)
03-02-2006 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Tal
03-02-2006 11:02 AM


Re: Video
It was Last Temptation of Christ and the protests were throughout the US and Europe. I think there have been more protests regarding the cartoons because you have political issues within this as well as having specific people/groups pushing this to be more.
That does not change the fact that Xians get riled up in the same way and threaten people with death over imagery.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Tal, posted 03-02-2006 11:02 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Tal, posted 03-02-2006 11:14 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 67 of 91 (291473)
03-02-2006 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Tal
03-02-2006 11:14 AM


Re: Video
You are dillusional or simply not intellectually honest.
Do the research yourself. People were fire bombed.
How many people were killed at the Last temptation protests?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but its mainly the protestors getting killed, right? And who are killing them? Muslims. Hmmmmmm.
How much structural damage?
I already said there were less protests.
Again this does not change the fact that Xians get riled up in the same way and threaten people with death over imagery.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Tal, posted 03-02-2006 11:14 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Tal, posted 03-02-2006 11:45 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 75 by arachnophilia, posted 03-02-2006 3:21 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 70 of 91 (291482)
03-02-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Tal
03-02-2006 11:45 AM


Re: Video
It is NOT the same.
If you don't know what happened, how can you know its not the same?

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Tal, posted 03-02-2006 11:45 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Tal, posted 03-02-2006 1:46 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 72 of 91 (291509)
03-02-2006 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Tal
03-02-2006 1:46 PM


Re: Video
You do not live in reality.
It sure didn't feel like reality with a bunch of fanatic Xians promising death for watching a movie... but it happened.
Of course where I live WMDs were not found. What is reality to you?

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Tal, posted 03-02-2006 1:46 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Tal, posted 03-03-2006 9:16 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 74 of 91 (291523)
03-02-2006 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ramoss
03-02-2006 2:11 PM


Re: Bill Clinton ceding US ports to the enemy?
with the following part of the article
(Slamming head repeatedly)... I can't believe I didn't double check that article. Tal quote mining? Amazing!

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ramoss, posted 03-02-2006 2:11 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 78 of 91 (291751)
03-03-2006 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Tal
03-03-2006 9:16 AM


Re: Video
Simple yes or no question. Are the following weapons of mass destruction?
Shit, that's easy: NO.
1) Those are materials which could be used in WMDs.
2) Those are materials which were known and under UN oversight, or (in a few cases) old discarded materials which were not known to Sadddam, or small weapons contructed by forces having nothing to do with Saddam after our invasion was complete using materials previously mentioned, and so could not possibly have been the WMDs that Bush and Co were referring to.
3) Bush himself has admitted that no WMDs were found and has moved on to blame intel failures, so his answer would be NO.
I forgot to mention that in my reality Bush has admitted that no WMDs were found and has moved on to blame intel failures. What's it like where you are?

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Tal, posted 03-03-2006 9:16 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Tal, posted 03-03-2006 9:48 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 81 of 91 (291758)
03-03-2006 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tal
03-03-2006 9:48 AM


Re: Video
Wrong.
I got it! I got it! Bizarro world, right? Heheheh.
Explain how those materials were not what I said they were, and why you believe Bush is saying WMDs (the ones he was discussing for invasion) were found.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tal, posted 03-03-2006 9:48 AM Tal has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 85 of 91 (291872)
03-03-2006 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tal
03-03-2006 9:48 AM


Re: Video
You and Crash simply are not intellectually honest. Nattering nabobs of nonconsequentiality.
This was something you felt you had to edit in? Interesting. Does that last line come from somewhere? It seems out of character for you.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tal, posted 03-03-2006 9:48 AM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-03-2006 3:49 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 89 of 91 (294220)
03-11-2006 6:01 AM


Bush vs Congress: Does this help the nation?
Eventually a large body of the Congress including Reps came together to question the ports deal which Bush supported. They were ready to pass legislation that would end its possibility and Bush threatened a veto. Ultimately the UAE decided to cede control to US owned companies.
Intriguingly Bush's reaction to this has been to damn the decision of congress and as such the will of the american people. He has argued as if there was no valid reason for hesitation in allowing a foreign nation (its not just a foreign company as he likes to spin it) to control our ports, particularly one in a relatively unstable part of the world, and with less transparency and intel capabilities.
Indeed, in trying to defend his own position, he is arguing as if it was just a paranoid race based decision, which will doom business relations between the US and MidEast companies. Isn't that exactly what a president should not be doing at this time? Shouldn't the president be trying to smooth over any issues this might cause instead of inflaming passions against the US, particularly by painting americans as anti-arab?
I am firmly in support of MidEast companies doing business with the US, but even I saw there was a legitimate question here. It doesn't seem to help matters for a president to pretend there was none, and use his air time to perhaps create the prophecy he has set out. And somehow argue a position that we should let whomever run whatever they want within the US, even some of the most vital spots, or we are somehow being unfair. That is not a good president... uhm, I mean precedent.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Minnemooseus, posted 03-11-2006 10:41 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 91 of 91 (294269)
03-11-2006 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Minnemooseus
03-11-2006 10:41 AM


Re: Bush vs Congress: Does this help the nation?
If only Congress had then had the backbone to question that situation.
I figured years from now, when Bush was out of office and we are still paying for all of the errors, many members of Congress (and Reps in general) would start waking up, much like a drunk after a long bender and ask themselves: "what were we thinking?"
Maybe some are already starting to wake up.
I hope their newly found backbone solidifies so that they can start dealing with some of the mess, as well as prevent future problems by Bush n Co.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Minnemooseus, posted 03-11-2006 10:41 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
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