The Serpent of Genesis is not the Dragon of Revelations

Incidently Ringo, if you were to ask me if man can commit sin apart from the influence of the Devil, I think I would have to say yes.Sin could be in existence apart from the Devil. It is only that the Devil got sin started and going in the universe and has the most stake in keeping it alive and well.

Ringo, I only mean that they are not IMO "THE EVIL ONE". That one and only unique "evil one" is the being associated with the serpent - Satan the Devil. He is the main evil one.I would remind you that the very good web site that Arach pointed me to said that the Midrash and Talmud taught that Satan was the most evil or chief evil. So John is in agreement with the Talmud and the Midrash to designate the devil as "the evil one". Don't you think so? I think "the poor little snake" points to something more profound in Genesis. God just arranged it so that the poor litte snake could be used in the story to communicate some deeper truths.Beside an African Rock Python can reach up to 35 feet and hundreds of pounds.I don't know how little the critter was. Do you?

Purpledawn, This might be plausible. If either the woman or the manchild born from the woman symbolized Israel then I would agree.Now the woman should not point to the nation of Israel alone for this reason:Revelation 12:17 says that the dragon went off to war against the rest of the woman's seed. And these children of the woman seem to be the law keeping Jews with the Christ believing Christians - "And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 12:17)Now those "who keep the commandments of God" may safely be interpreted as the God fearing faithful of Israel. But "who ... have the testimony of Jesus" must refer to the constituents of the new testament church.Since the other remaining seed of the woman is composed of these two groups, those "who keep the commandments of God" and those who "have the testimony of Jesus" I must conclude that the children of the woman are both of Israel as a nation and the Christian church.That would make the opposing dragon not exclusively the nation of Israel's enemy but also the enemy of the church of Christ.Now another way of reasoning is that the manchild that is born to the woman and is raptured to God's throne symbolizes Israel. Then the opposing dragon might be the nations who are a Leviathan dragon against Israel. But this is not likely either because the manchild is composed of those who overcome the Devil "by the blood of the Lamb"."And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb ..." (Rev. 12:11)This would of course refer to the redemptive death of Christ for man's atonement before God. Since Israel is yet in a state of unbelief in Christ's redemption it is not likely that the manchild represents Israel [nationally].The manchild does, I believe, include Jews who have believed in Jesus. But as of yet I don't think that Israel as a nation should be symbolized as the manchild who overcame the accuser of the brothers by the blood of the Lamb.A possible objection might be that the ones who overcome mentioned in verse 11 are not the manchild. But this I must reject. The manchild that is born of the woman is evidently a corporate entity. This is demonstrated by the words "brothers" and "they" and "their" and "them".This "brothers, them, they, their" should refer to the manchild who has escaped from the dragon's desire to devour it. The child was caught up to God and to His throne in verse 5.Who else could the manchild refer to? It should not symbolize the angels who are fighting against the Devil and his angels in verse 7 -"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels. And they did not prevail, neither was place found for them any longer in heaven."Though the good angels do overcome the Devil and his angels, they do not do so by the blood of the Lamb. The good angels are sinless and have no need for the atoning blood of Christ's death.So logically, the ones who overcome the Devil in verse 11 "by the blood of the Lamb" must be humans who have won spiritual warfare against the accusing Satan by believing in the redemption of Jesus Christ. I think that that would include Jews and Gentiles. I don't think Israel as a national identity is symbolized by this collective manchild. Revelation is a harvesting of all the seeds of revelation previously sown elsewhere in the whole Bible. So it is quite normal that it should allude back to Genesis as well as New Testament books. Revelation hails back to Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and other books of the Hebrew canon.The center of the Bible as a whole is Christ the Messiah.I do not mean that Genesis had no purpose or meaning to the pre-gospel era Jewish nation. But the new covenant apostles and prophets must illuminate its deepest meaning to us.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-17-2006 04:16 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-17-2006 04:18 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-17-2006 04:19 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-17-2006 04:23 PM

Where did you get your beliefs about God? That's what I would like to know first. Did your reading of a book called the Holy Bible have anything to do with you arriving at a belief in a God?My belief in God is quite much influenced by the Bible. It says some other things too which I have come to believe along with its teaching about God.Unfortunately, one of the things is that for a temporary time God has an enemy. We cannot blame our wrong doing totally upon this enemy as an excuse for our moral choices. But the enemy is involved.It is good for us to want to take responsiblity for our actions. It is good that we don't, like comedian Flip Wilson, say in a frivolous way "Oh the Devil made me do that!" But the Bible, while holding us responsible for our decisions, does teach plainly about a superhuman source of opposition against God.I have come to believe that it is so. So I take it that you would not go along with the prosecutor especially utilized by God to be His court accuser? The bait of wanting to argue against that I will not take. Because I don't think an external Satan is verses deeper truths about us.I don't think the two concepts are at odds with one another and that to argue for one side is to deny the other.So I agree with you to a large extent. But not completely if you mean that no intelligent being exists who opposes God.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-17-2006 04:39 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-17-2006 04:40 PM

I would like to say a word about Cain in this passage:"And Jehovah has regard for Abel and for his offering. But for Cain and his offering He had no regard. And Cain became very angry, and his countenance fell. And Jehovah said to Cain, Why are your angry, and why has your countenance fallen?" (Genesis 4:4b-5)What I propose to you all here is that Cain's hidden inner motive was touched and that his outward facade was effected. The countenance is the outward expression of his face. But inwardly there was something there which was at odds with God.Now we may fool people by our outward expression. We may look pious or satisfied. But God knows the innermost condition of man's heart. God saw deep in Cain's being something there in opposition to God's way of worship. When God touched that matter, Cain's outward countenance was shaken and effected.I believe that the power of sin was working in all the descendents of Adam and Eve. Deep within their beings somewhere sin was operating. Outwardly they may have all looked quite godly and upright. But God looks beyond the outward expression and can shine and expose the innermost motive of man.And this God does for the sake of His great love - "And Jehovah said to Cain, Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifeted up?

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And if you do not well, sin is crouching at the door; and his desire is for you."The outward countenance of Cain fell because the perceptive word of God penetrated beyond the outward facade to the true inner condition of his heart. And on the negative side God warns that sin is crouching at the door.This seems very much that two sources were competing for Cain's innermost being. God was competiting for Cain's true worship. And sin was crouching at the door competing to drive Cain further from God in rebellion.The account of Cain and Abel therefore reveals that sin and God were both competing for the inward being of man. God through speaking to the human conscience. And sin through its evil suggestions injected into the mind of man.Furthermore God says "If you do well ...". Though man has gained the knowledge of good and evil it is still God who has the authority to establish what doing well is and is not. At least in this matter of approaching God, God will not accept any way devized by Cain and Abel. He has His prescribed way. Abel must have taken it. And Cain must have stubburnly decided that his own invention would do.When God rejects Cain's self chosen device the inward pricking of Cain causes his outward countenance to fall. He is seen as extremly angry to the point of wanting to murder Abel the accepted one.These things I share to also demonstrate that an external source of sin as Satan is not verses the spiritual light shinning on man's inward nature. The account of Genesis 4:3-13 does reveal that the inner corruption had dulled Cain's human conscience.Throughout Cain shows no remorse, except for himself -"My ounishment is greater than I can bear" (v.13). His heart had become hardened by sin. He was not only not his brothers keeper (v.9). He was neither sorry or repentent though God gave him time to acknowledge his sin.This is the way NOT for man to go concerning the conviction of God's word and God's light on our inner being.

One might argue that it was [NOT] the devil himself who is said to do bad things but just one or some his emmisaries. It really doesn't matter. One of his subordinates doing it counts for the devil doing it in the Bible. Like any great battle, the attack of one army is usually attributed to the commander of that army.The Bible draws our attention to the fact that a very key and strategic points in God's plan Satan got involved to counter God.
For example we are told that Satan entered into Judas to entice him to betray the Son of Man (John 13:27). Satan saw to this deed personally. He put it into his heart and he entered into his heart."And while supper was taking place, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, that he should betray Him" (John 13:2)The net effect is that the devil put it into Judas's heart to betray the Son of Man. That was a decisive point in the spiritual battle, that Jesus be betrayed by one of His disciples. Either the devil did so personally himself or directed some evil subordinate to do so.In verse 27 John is more graphic. It was not only put into the heart of Judas by the devil but Satan entered into him:"And at the moment, after the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus therefore said to him, What you do, do quickly." (John 13:27)I take this to mean that the attack was too key for Satan to leave it to any less powerful subject of his to carry out.Satan also seems to have personally been involved in wanting to cause Peter to fail in his faith. This required special preventative prayers from the Son of God:"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has asked to have you to sift as wheat. But I have made petition concerning you that your faith would not fail; and you, once you have turned again, establish your brothers." (Luke 22:32)In His prayer before His going to the cross Jesus prays specifically that the Father would keep the disciples from the evil one:"I do not ask that You would take them out of the world, but that You would keep them out of the hands of the evil one." (John 17:15)Keeping the disciples from the evil one would include Satan himself and any evil spirit in Satan's army of enemies of God.In Revelation there is not doubt that Satan is counted as one individual among two others."And I saw out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits as frogs" (Rev. 16:13)Satan, the dragon, is counted there as one among three. The other two being the beast, who is the Antichrist and the false peophet who accompanies the beast.I see no compelling reason to think the individual advasary Satan who is pointed out in Job is obviously a different one from that advasary mentioned in Zechariah 3:1,2.All the above examples are key moments in God's plan.1.) The betraying of the Son of God by Judas that Christ would be destroyed by His enemies.2.) The stumbling in faith of the prominent disciple among the twelve, Peter.3.) The preserving of the disciples of Christ from the evil one after Jesus physically leaves the earth.4.) The last and final ditch effort of Satan with his Antichrist and false prophet to lead the earth astray from God in the last days.5.) The rebuilding of the temple after the captivity.There are many advasaries of course. I see no reason why Satan the devil - the evil one is not specifically pointed out in these verses. Just like there are many anointed people in the Bible there is one Christos. So there are many advasaries but one Satan. And the two are opposed to each other.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-18-2006 08:58 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-18-2006 10:16 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-18-2006 10:20 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-18-2006 10:22 AM

Arach, It implies that Satan was in some way in the same class as the other "sons of God." Do you think that God could be mocking the king of Babylon and at the same time revealing something about the Daystar, the son of the dawn, as an angelic being?I don't think God is mocking in Ezekiel. I doubt that God would mock a Gentile king telling him that he was set as the anointed cherub guarding the ark of the covenant of the God of Israel. Again God says that He set him so. He appointed him that way. God does not say mockingly that he asserted himself to be such. Possibly. But if Ezekiel is to be taken as a history of the fall of an "anointed cherub" he must have been a particularly wise one. Not anyone can present a convincing case of accusation before God. Just like not anyone can arrange a debate with the president of a country.This advasary must be rather exceptionally skillful to counter God's wisdom. The fallen "anointed cherub" and "the Daystar, the son of the dawn" of Ezekiel and Isaiah is the perfect candidate:"You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteusness was found in you. ... Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness" (See Ezek. 28:15-17)This kind of being would have the gull and the skill to actually try to debate God Himself. Knowing so much about God's creation and God's way with man, he would be the real ultimate evil accuser. Peter at that moment was one with Satan. So it was a speaking to both.Now the comments of the New Testament apostles are key to my underwstanding of the whole Bible. Some things were mysteries in the past generations but were illuminated upon by the new covenant apostles and prophets:"Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages but has now been manifested, and through the prophetic writings, according to the command of the eternal God, has been made known to all the Gentiles for the obedience of faith" (Rom. 16:25,26)Some things you wonder how I could derive such meaning from in the Old Testament. It is with the help of the New Testament revelation. When John shows a vision of a dragon dragging one third of the angels of heaven away, we put this together with other Old Testament verses and understand that this is a vision of Satan's rebellion. But in Ezekiel God says that he set the anointed cherub in that ancient exalted position:"You were the anointed cherub who covered [the Ark]; INDEED I SET YOU ... you were upon the holy mountain of God ..."And again "You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created ...". God set him. God created him. This is not a mock of something he assumed for himself. Rather God appointed him to be something which he corrupted.I do not gain my undertanding of Satan from Milton's Paradise Lost or Dante's Inferno. I gather my understanding from the Holy Bible with prayer and careful study. I do benefit from the wisdom of past students of the Bible accepting or dismissing carefully their expositions in conjunction with my own study. I don't know that much about it. But when God ordered the design of the ark of the covenant He instructed Moses to make two cherubims hovering over it.The assumption I make is that these things Moses built regarding the tabernacle had some corresponding reality in heaven. I do not know much about cherubim other than that they seem to stand for the glory of God. Or that is all I really want to share at this time.One guarded the way to the tree of life with a flaming sword when Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden. They stand for the glory of God. They are angelic beings of some kind. I don't know how much of that statement is reliable. I will do some study about it.Regardless, I wrote from Paul's epistle - " ... my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages but has now been manifested, and through the prophetic writings, according to the command of the eternal God, has been made known to all the Gentiles for the obedience of faith" God revealed some matters to the new covenant apostles and prophets that were not that clear to the Jews of previous times. And through them God illuminates many things in the Old Testament. Nonsense. Is a fourth grade teacher being tricky and deceitful because she or he witholds 10th grade material from the students? The revelation of the Bible progresses and we have to mature along with it. This can even be seen in God's gradual unfolding of Himself to the prophets of the Old Testament.This is why they kept coming up with new names for God. As He revealed more of Himself the number of His descriptive names also grew.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-18-2006 10:12 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-18-2006 10:13 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-18-2006 10:27 AM

I think more needs to be said concerning this.The light and revelation that a people have at a certain time is to be followed. God commends that in His believers. If they have a certain level of revelation it is that level that they must obey God in.For example: Abraham is said to have made sacrifices which produced smoke which went up to be sweet pleasing smell to God. Now I do believe that latter wisdom had it that God did not actually want to smell smoke. However, Abraham's obedience was looked upon by God.The level of understanding Noah and Abraham had in the making of sacrifices was the level in which they were to be found in obedience. I don't think it is deceitful or tricky for God to disclose deeper meanings of things in the Bible.He looks for obedience. He looks for faith and the taking heed to His word.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-18-2006 10:34 AM

I respectfully admit that we have come to the point (Ringo and Purpledawn and possibly others) to agree to disagree on the serpent in Genesis being Satan or just a satan.Can we move on to discuss the serpent in the book of Numbers? I think you'll find many juicy things not to agree with me on there.Shall we move to the book of Numbers and its serpent?

Arach, How many years did Jacob think his son Joseph was dead? God knew that Joseph was alive in Egypt all the time Jacob was sorrowing. Why didn't God reveal it to Jacob?Then all of a sudden Jacob's sons tell him that Joseph his long lost beloved son is alive and quite well ruling as a leader in Egypt. And God simply says:"... I am God, the God of your father; do not be afraid to go down to Egypt, for I will make of you a great nation there.

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I Myself will go down with you to Egypt, and I Myself will also surely bring you up again; and Joseph's hand will close your eyes." (Gen. 46:3,4)All those painful years of mourning and longing God didn't reveal to Jacob that Joseph was still alive. Why?Why didn't God tell Jacob that he was marrying Leah instead of his beloved Rachel? Why didn't God tell Elijah the prophet earlier that He had reserved seven thousand men who had not bowed down to the image of Baal? Elijah certainly could have used that information earlier.Even the prophet says that God had hidden someting from him: "... but the man of God said, Leave her alone; for she is bitter in soul, and Jehovah has hidden the matter from me and has not told me about it" (See 2 Kings 4:27)On occasion even Christ marveled in surprise at something the Father had not revealed to Him.Why does God not tell the Christian church the hour and day of the second coming of Christ? God conceals things from us still to this day. We should not complain about the things that God does not reveal to us. But we should be careful that we know when He IS revealing something and then we should look to His mercy to believe and not reject revelation. I intend no such thing. If the analogy conveyed that that was not my intention. Since that was not my thought I don't have to be concerned about it.
God progressively reveals His economy in the Bible. From the first generation of humans to today we are entrusted with more and more of His revelation as He educates us. Exodus 6:3 says "And God spoke to Moses and said to him, I am Jehovah. And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as the All-sufficient God; but by my name Jehovah I did not make Myself known to them."Yet when Moses asks God the "name" of the God who sends him to deliver the Hebrews from Egypt God says "... I AM WHO I AM. And He said Thus shall you say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you." (Exodus 3:15)I'm not sure there is that much difference between a name and a title of God.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-18-2006 08:55 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-18-2006 08:56 PM

The Numbers 21:4-9 passage was used by Christ in His talk with Nicodemus about being "born again." The lifting of the bronze serpent was used by Christ to expound to Nicodemus the realities of regeneration in the new birth. This chapter concerns regeneration or God causing man to be spiritually reborn by the impartation of His life. But related to this is Christ terminating the evil sin poisoned nature which man received in Adam's disobedience.Satan injected his evil nature into our flesh when man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This act corresponds to the children of Israel being bitten by poisoness serpents in Numbers 21. When the people sinned firery serpents were sent to bite them. Correspondingly the Satanic poison was injected into man's flesh in Genesis chapter 3.God told Moses to lift a bronze serpent on a pole on the bitten people's behalf. Bronze stands often for judgement. The bronze serpent was therefore for God's judgment, that by looking upon that judged bronze serpent all the lookers might be healed and live. The bitten people only had to look upon the bronze serpent lifted up on the pole and the snake poison would be healed and they would live.This was a type set up in God's foreknowledge. Jesus applied the type to His coming crucifixion - "... as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up". When Jesus Christ died on the cross God judged the sin in man in His Son. To God it was as if His Son was in the form of Satan carrying all the sinful nature in Himself to be judged by God. Romans 8:3 says " ... God sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh ..."God sent His Son in the likeness of the fallen sinful humanity. Christ did not have the sin which had been injected into the descendents of Adam. But He came in the form of a sin poisoned son of Adam. Christ did not incarnate in the form of the unfallen man before Satan corrupted him. Christ came in the form of the fallen man who has been injected with Satan's nature and has "sin in the flesh".The bronze serpent had the form of the serpent but was without the serpent's poison. Christ was made "in the likeness of the flesh of sin," but He did not participate in any way in the sin if the flesh:"Him who did not know sdin He made sin on our behalf that we might become the righteouness of God in Him" (2 Cor. 5:21)"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all respects like us, yet without sin." (Hebrews 4:15)When Christ was lifted up in the flesh on the cross, by His death Satan, the old serpent, was dealt with (John 12:31-33; Heb. 2:14). This means that the serpentine nature within fallen man has been dealt with. Those who believe into the sphere and realm of Christ can experience the power of His death nullifying the serpentine nature in their living. The Satanic poison is annulled by the crucified and resurrected Christ who is dispensed into the believers.Since Christ had only the form of the fallen Satanified man He was represented by the bronze serpent. The bronze serpent that Moses erected on the pole had only the form of a serpent but not the poison of the serpent. Christ was lifted up on His cross as being in the form of the Satan bitten human race. He was judged there by God. The wrath of God which was due us fell upon Christ on the cross.Jesus related the looking upon the bronze serpent to believing into Christ - " ... as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that every one who believes into Him may have eternal life."Instead of divine wrath for judgment, God dispenses to the believers the gift of "eternal life." Sin and death are enemies of God and of His eternal purpose. Eternal life is His desire for those who obey Him to believe into His Son Jesus Christ.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-19-2006 04:55 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-19-2006 04:57 PM

Mr. X, Yes. The prophecy of God says that the seed of the woman would bruise the head of the serpent, and that the heel of the woman's seed would be bruised also.According to the teaching of Christ that He was the reality of the type of the lifted bronze serpent, He dealt a blow to Satan. But in the process He had to give His life in crucifixion. So the crucifixion of Christ is the major part of the fulfimment of God's prediction that the woman's seed would bruise the head of the serpent.Here are verses relevant to Christ's death dealing with Satan. Here Jesus speaks of His upcoming crucifixion on the cross:"Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself. But He said this signifying by what kind of death He was about to die" (John 12:31-33)His death was a judgment of the sin filled world which developed commencing with the poisoning of Adam and Eve. And His death was also a casting out of the ruler of that sin filled world. This victory is unto those who have faith and like the overcomers in Revelation 12 "loved not their soul life even unto death". In other words rather than cling to the Satanified soul-life received from the fall they allow Christ's life to transform them to overcome that sinful nature.Here again Christ's death is taught as a bruise upon the evil world ruler Satan:"Since therefore the children have shared in blood and flesh, He also Himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death He might destroy Him who has the might of death, that is, the devil" (Heb. 2:14)The seed of the woman bruise the serpent's head in casting the ruler of the world out. The seed of the woman bruised the serpent's head in through death He destroyed him who has the might of death, the devil.These truths are made real subjectively by faith in those who live in the sphere and realm of the Son of God as their life. This the connection to the overcoming corperate manchild in Revelation 12:"And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne ... And they over him [the ancient serpent, Satan the Devil who deceives the whole inhabited earth (v.9)] by the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death"Now it is also important to realize that this way of interpreting the Old Testament through the revelation of the New Testament was ordained by God before the ages of the world. This illuminating wisdom of the apostles upon the Hebrew Bible was ordained by God and not their invention as an afterthought. This we can see from Paul's word in First Corinthians: Before the ages God ordained a certain wisdom concerning the death and resurrection of Christ to the New Testament apostles. John was one and so was Paul. Their illuminating comments on Genesis was of divine wisdom ordained for God's servants before Judaism or the Christian faith came into existence.Paul continues his comment saying that what God had planned for those who love him had not entered into their hearts. Therefore neither the writer of Genesis, nor Adam, nor Eve could have fully understood the salvation God had planned for man in Jesus Christ: As students of the Christian apostles, we may safely and boldly say of Genesis and of the whole Old Testament, that this is our book.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-19-2006 06:39 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-19-2006 06:41 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-19-2006 06:47 PM

Purpledawn seems to want to have a Bible Study without studying the Bible when it comes to comments on Paul's references to the serpent. Purpledawn says this is about preachers who might lead the congregations under his teaching astray. I agree. But Paul said that these preachers and false apostle were ministers of Satan"And no wonder, for Satan himself transfigures himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if also his ministers transfigure themselves into ministers of righteousness ..." (2 Cor. 11:14,15)This is in the same chapter where Paul warns of Corinthians being deceived from the simplicty of Christ by the false apostles as the serpent deceived Eve. The false apostles were ministers of Satan leading the disciples from God's new testament economy.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 12:38 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 12:39 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 12:40 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 12:41 PM

Most "sermons" don't have people in the audience who can interject objections and challenge the sermonizer. The fact that you are allowed to raise objections, challenge, debate, or even take the talk in a whole different direction makes for a perculiar "sermon". I have never seen someone refuted so many times durning a sermon as you in this discussion. But your "plain text" explanation of what John meant in Revelation 12 is challenged. Perhaps you should have left that "plain text" reference out of the discussion's title.There is a mistake in your title regardless of your OP. It is challenged. I have made my points. But you still resort to "Please stick to the topic" as a weak defense.Since you have no strong defenese against the debunking of your erroneous title statement you now turn to charges of "sermonizing". Get use to someone questioning your "study" which states highly debatable statements about what John meant in his reference to "the ancient serpent"And the accusations of "sermons," "diatribes," "pontifications," "sermonettes," whatever other label you'd like to level at those who debunk you, doesn't bother me.Beside you might learn something from a Bible thumping, holy roller, hoot and holler SERMONIZING Bible Study . Especially when you put out flaky stuff like John was not refering to Satan in Revelation as the ancient serpent, Satan the Devil. That's your feeling and your problem. Actually he did. "For such ones are false apostles ...." (v.13)Look back at verses 3,4 "But I fear lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your thoughts would be corrupted from the simplicity and purity toward Christ. (v.3)

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For if indeed he who comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit, which you have not received, or a different gospel, which you have not accepted, you bear well with him. (v.4)In this chapter Paul is speaking of the workers who were preaching a different Jesus from the Jesus presented in Paul and his co-workers's gospel of grace. Through out the chapter he is comparing himself with these false apostles. They were more elegant in speech but taught falsely. They boasted of support from the churches whereas Paul says he ironically considered taking support for thier sake as robbing other churches. Throughout he is presenting his ministry as the genuine apostle's ministry and those competitors as false apostles.In verse 14 he says that they were Satan's ministers. He was being quite direct and not using innuendo or insinuation at all:"But what I do, I also will do, that I may cut off the opportunity of those desiring an opportunity, that in that thing in which they boast, they may be found even as we.
For such ones are false apostles ... ".The false apostles are "his [Satan's] ministers" the very same troubling workers who are are being used by Satan to craftily turn their pure love from Jesus Christ. This they do just as the serpent deceived Eve. Right. Subtle deception from [b]"false apostles"{/b who are "his [Satan's] ministers" transforming themselves into "ministers of righteousness." Satan was using these "ministers" to turn the Corinthian's pure devotion towards Christ away from Christ, even as the serpent deceived Eve.It is the same evil spiritual entity that Eve confronted which the new covenant apostles now confront over the devotion of the Corinthian church. Incorrect. The serpent in the garden is at work as Satan with his phony "ministers of righteousness" doing his biding by corrupting the hearts of the Corinthian congregation.The "serpent deceived Eve" is associated with "he who comes preaches another Jesus". And these ones who were coming doing so were the false apostles and ministers of Satan.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 06:43 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 06:44 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 06:51 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 06:53 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 06:55 PM

That's really what I don't understand either.It seems the polite thing for me to do is to stay out of Purpledawn's study.But sometimes for the sake of more accurate examination of the Bible's meaning I have to argue and not just agree politely.