A proof against ID and Creationism

ID
Creator Created? bkellyDear Mr. Bkelly,I started reading your string and just had to through in my two cense.At the end of your first string you ask, I do believe you have over looked one possibility. According to Creationist, an Intelligent1a,b Designer1,a,b,2,3,4,5 designed this Universe1,2a,b.The Universe1,2a,b came into existence some 13.7 billion years ago. To be precise, the dimensions (Height, Width, Depth, and Space-Time), particles, and energy that make up the universe1,2a,b came into existence at the beginning (The Big Bang). Now if you accept that there was a ”causal agent’ (Setting the Universe in to motion) that ”Causal Agent’, by definition, existed outside of, and separate from the universe.By saying “the Creator1,2 had to have a creator1,2” if “the creation had a Creator1,2 ” is a fallacy of thinking inside your four dimensional box. You are applying the laws that govern this universe1,2a,b (and everything in this universe1,2a,b) to an Entity that clearly exists and operates outside of our universe1,2a,b.By understanding that the Creator1,2 exists, and operates both inside and outside of our four dimensional universe1,2a,b (I.E. The Creator1,2 operates in 4+ dimensions and, as such, is not bound by the laws of this universe1,2a,b) you can begin to understand that the Creator1,2 in not bound by the law that ”if it exists it had to have a causal agent’. That law is a function of the restraints of the dimensions that we exist in (inside of this universe1,2a,b).I exist in the dimensions of Height, Width, Depth, and Space-Time. Everything that exists in, and is a part of this universe1,2a,b has a causal agent (something that caused it to exist). If it is of sufficient organization and complexity I can say, with certainty, that it required an intelligence1a,b to design1,a,b,2,3,4,5 it. The universe1,2a,b has both organization and complexity; therefore, I come to the conclusion that it has an Intelligent1a,b Designer1a,b,2,3,4,5. If you go to my string about Design (Message 103 of 138 08-22-2004 12:52 AM) you’ll see how I come to the conclusion that the universe1,2a,b had an Intelligent1a,b Designer1a,b,2,3,4,5.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .When speaking on various subjects the one problem I have the most is the ever-changing way people use, and misuse, words. So, for this discussion I used these words with the following definitions. (Definition are take from Dictionary.com)Universe:
n.
1. All matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole.
2.
a. The earth together with all its inhabitants and created things.
b. The human race.
(The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.)
Intelligent:
noun
1
a : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations
b : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria(Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.)Design:
v. de”signed, de”sign”ing, de”signs
v. tr.
1.
a. To conceive or fashion in the mind; invent: design a good excuse for not attending the conference.
b. To formulate a plan for; devise: designed a marketing strategy for the new product.
2. To plan out in systematic, usually graphic form: design a building; design a computer program.
3. To create or contrive for a particular purpose or effect: a game designed to appeal to all ages.
4. To have as a goal or purpose; intend.
5. To create or execute in an artistic or highly skilled manner.

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v. intr.
1. To make or execute plans.
2. To have a goal or purpose in mind.
3. To create designs.
(The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.)Creator:
n.
1. One that creates: the creator of a new television series; a born creator of trouble.
2. Creator God. Used with the.This message has been edited by jrtjr1, 04-11-2006 04:32 AM

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For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him should not perish (come to destruction, be lost), but have eternal (everlasting) life.

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For God did not sent the Son in to the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, But that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.
John 3:16, 17 (Amplified Bible)

Dear Parasomnium,Sorry for the colors, I like thing to stand out, I’ll try to tone it down.As far as the ”Definitions’ go, I only put in the definitions that applied to the words as I used them in the posting, however, I went back and annotated them. I’m sorry, I said that “If you accept”; I did not state that you ”Had’ to accept it. That’s the funny thing about free will, you don’t have to accept the facts. However, it has been my experience that ignoring the face leads to great trouble.You make a vary good point, Thank you. You and Modulous both state something to the effect of

quote:

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just because everything that exists in this universe had a causal agent, this in no way effects whether or not the universe itself needs a causal agent”.

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This would be a logical argument if the reason ”everything that exists in this universe had a causal agent’ had to do with something that is in this universe. The problem, however, is that the reason ”everything that exists in this universe had a causal agent’ is because the universe has Space-Time as apart of its fabric. (I.E. Space-Time is a part of what makes up this universe)As I stated before “the dimensions (Height, Width, Depth, and Space-Time), particles, and energy that make up the universe came into existence at the beginning (The Big Bang).” Space-Time does not simply exist in this universe, it is a part of what makes up this universe; and it is Space-Time that dictates that this universe, and everything in it, must have a beginning and therefore a beginner (I.E. causal agent).

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For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him should not perish (come to destruction, be lost), but have eternal (everlasting) life.

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For God did not sent the Son in to the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, But that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.
John 3:16, 17 (Amplified Bible)

Dear Modulous,You’re right about the age of the universe; I was think of the age of the universe and typed in the approximant age of the Earth. My apologies, I made the correction.As far as the Universe not being complex, I’m not trying to be mean here, however you may want to read up on the little science has been able to deduce from the heavens. Every time we delve into her mysteries, the Universe turns out to be far more complex then we ever thought possible. Same thing with Cellular-Biology, forty years a go we though cells were simple, we now know that they are vary complex factories of Nano-Machines.

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For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him should not perish (come to destruction, be lost), but have eternal (everlasting) life.

​

For God did not sent the Son in to the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, But that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.
John 3:16, 17 (Amplified Bible)

Dear Cavediver,You state

quote:

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No, they (1) did not come into existence at the Big Bang. For that to happen you would need a state of non-existence and a state of existence and some transition between those two states. Nothing like this is suggested by the Big Bang. There is simply existence.

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Sorry, but even Stephen Hawking seams to disagree with you on that one. 1 Height, Width, Depth, and Space-Time, particles, and energy

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For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him should not perish (come to destruction, be lost), but have eternal (everlasting) life.

​

For God did not sent the Son in to the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, But that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.
John 3:16, 17 (Amplified Bible)