The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment

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Then we each have to decide whether we think the words of Jesus are trustworthy and credible. Does He have the kind of approvedness which lends to considering His words as reliable? Do the traits of His character lean toward a foolish man who speaks wild and untrue things amiss? Or is His character win our sense of trust that He speaks knowledgeably, credibly, reliably? Does He have the approvedness as a source of truth or is He more likely to be a deceiver or self deceived?

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Actually we would have to decide whether the words of the writer are trustworthy and credible. Jesus didn't write the story, he supposedly told it. So we really have to ask all those questions about the author and unfortunately we don't know the name of the actual author. These are the real issues and decisions that we are left alone with before God. But this is not the topic.Not sure if you have read the whole thread, but I suggest you read the OP before asking questions that don't add to the discussion.If you feel that the scriptures support eternal torment related to what I stated in the OP, then share the scripture. Punishment is a penalty and the penalty is forever, never to be reversed. Torment is torture. If someone were to endure eternal torment, he would be experiencing it eternally and therefore has eternal life. Not a good eternal life, but continuing eternally none the less.Eternal punishment means that the person ceases to exist, never to be given eternal life. The penalty is eternal not the person life.Eternal torment would mean that all receive eternal life, but some are tortured and others are on streets of gold.If you feel that the teachings of Jesus support eternal torment, then share the verses keeping in mind what I have explained above.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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The Bible's term is "the second death."

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The second death is only mentioned in Revelation, which is a symbolic vision. How does its symbology in Revelation deal with eternal torment?

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I don't think this is what I see in the New Testament or in real life. If a person is given a 20 year sentence in prison and he dies after 15 years, his punishment has ceased. He actually suffered for 15 years.

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Not a good analogy since God can raise people from the dead. The resurrection is for the righteous. The unrighteous will be like the criminals burned up in Gehenna. They have no place in the world to come. No resurrection. That is their punishment after death, no eternal life. They cease to exist anywhere. The body is dead and the soul is dead. This penalty is never reversed. There is a difference between punishing a child and tormenting a child.

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The term used for eternal perdition is utimately called "the lake of fire" or "the second death".

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I'm not familiar with perdition, so again you will need to explain how the symbology in Revelation deals with this topic.

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But if we were to restrict to recorded words attributed to the physical voice of Jesus, the equating of "the eternal fire" with "eternal punishment" (See Matthew 25:41,46) indicate endless torment.

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Punishment and torment are not the same. You haven't shown that they are.

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And in the same passage clearly eternal punishment is in contrast to eternal life rather than the same thing - "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46) Clearly, opposite and mutually opposing destinies are what is being conveyed.

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Exactly. The righteous go into eternal life and the nonrighteous don't, they cease to exist. That is very opposite eternal life. Life-Death

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Do you disagree with this? Read it again -

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"And these will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, ... BUT ... the righteous into ETERNAL LIFE " (Matt. 25:46 my emphasis).

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No I don't. But I see no torment. Show me that punishment means torment.Out of curiosity why do you prefer torment, as opposed to ceasing to exist?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I have no idea what you are saying in Message 67, so unless you can show it is explained or supported in the Bible, I have no answer.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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The word "eternal" has been bandied about alot and I was wondering whether you, as thread originator, had some working-definition of same?

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You seem to (in your OP and subsequent argument) assume a before/after, time-elapsing version of eternity without supplying any reason why one should suppose it to be so.

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Using the definitions provided in Strong's, I'm looking at the word eternal in relation to life and punishment as meaning without end.I haven't really looked any deeper than that.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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It has to do with what is written there and what is the intended meaning. I don't like everything that is written in the Bible! I don't pretend that it is not written just because I don't like it.

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Neither do I and that is why we are having this discussion.You didn't address any of the topical content of Message 87.Second DeathThe fact that the second death is called "second death" negates the idea of torment. Death is final.Punishment vs TormentHas God shown us that he is capable of torment? I don’t see support for it.God didn’t torture the world of Noah, but destroyed it with water.
God didn’t torture Sodom and Gomorrah, but destroyed them quickly with fire.
God ordered the Canaanites to be killed swiftly, not tortured.
I haven’t found anything in the Law of Moses providing for imprisonment and torture.
The sacrificial animals weren’t even allowed to suffer. Death was to be as quick and as painless as possible.So God has not shown torment to be a part of his nature.There is a difference between eternal punishment and eternal torment or torture. An eternal punishment is a judgment whose consequences are without end. Whereas eternal torment, means a person is experiencing pain and agony without end.Show me where the Bible speaks of eternal torment (not punishment).

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

That's easy, because it isn't the topic of this thread. So don't anyone go there.

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How then do you argue that God would not torment?

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God has the power to torment, but his actions recorded in the Bible show that, to date, he hasn't. Therefore we should be able to trust that he won't torment his children (mankind). He will discipline and punish, but not torture.Just as I have the power to torment my child, but my child trusts that I won't because I never have.

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"And behold they [the demons] cried out, saying, What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have You come here before the time to torment us?" (Matthew 8:29)

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The demons realize that eventually the time of their torment will come. They don't deny that. They are only concerned that Christ will send them to that fate before the appointed time.

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As we've noticed I understand the written word very differently than you do. Not much I can do about that though.IMO, you're jumping to a conclusion that isn't necessarily there.The writers of Mark and Luke don't mention the appointed time, but if you read Matthew closely, the statement does not imply that the appointed time was the time of torture. It doesn't specify what is to happen at the appointed time. They simply inquired if Jesus was there to torture them before whatever was to happen at that time.But Jesus didn't torture them in any of the books, they were sent into the pigs, who died.Now I'm not versed on how demons can and can't die, but Jesus did not demonstrate torture or address it.

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What verse do you use to prove that the demons will cease to exist?

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This isn't about demons, this thread is about humans.I found this interesting in Jude: If Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of undergoing the punishment of eternal fire, then where is the eternal flame? There is no fire burning on the site of Sodom or Gomorrah.Maybe eternal doesn't mean what we think it means!?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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From Message 105
If "the eternal fire" in Matthew 25:41 goes out so that the fires are NOT eternal, then why does Purpledawn not conversely argue that "eternal life" in Matthew 25:46 likewise is to expire?
Anyone?

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That is the question that is off topic, not my own topic question. Good grief, read!It is quite obvious that you have no clue what I'm arguing about. Read the OP again.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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In Revelation some men are tormented for "five months" (Rev.9:10) and then afterward tormented "forever" (Rev.20:10).

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Since you don't want to deal with the symbolism of Revelations, I'll take it at face value.In chapter 9 the first woe is written about. As I understand it, the woes are warnings. A warning not a judgment. So the vision presents a five month warning.In chapter 20:10 there is some question as to whether the phrase forever and ever really means without end or just a very long period of time. This also only dealt with the devil, the beast and the false prophet (singular). This isn't really talking about all unrighteous people which is what I'm talking about.

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On what basis are we to believe in "five months" of torment and yet reject "forever and ever" torment?

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It has nothing to do with believing the individual verse, it has to do with understanding the overall vision and the message it contains.Your scatter technique is interesting, but doesn't help me see any flaw in my original conclusion.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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These people were of "mankind." Yet Jesus said their father was the devil and not God. Are they in danger of torment then?

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That has nothing to do with this topic.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Not sure what you are going on about. You asked a question and I answered it. The other narrative was to explain how I read context of the verses.You're asking questions about assumptions I haven't made. I really have no answers for you.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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It is on topic to discuss if such ones, not being children of God, are in danger of torment.

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Not if there isn't any eternal torment. That is the topic of this discussion.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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I think you are obfuscating away from the question.

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What in the world are you talking about?Your question: There is no believing or rejecting, it has to do with understanding the message of the vision.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Nope. All off topic. I didn't say there wasn't any eternal punishment. I said no eternal torment.If you're going to butcher it, at least get it right.

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So eternal punishment is not eternal torment?

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Write it out clearly before I discuss it. Commit yourself.

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I covered it starting in Message 66.