|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 13/65 Hour: 0/1 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Consciousness Continued: A fresh start | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
Christian7 Member (Idle past 277 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
quote: We are not dealing with a physical thing. When we deal with physical properties such a states of matter or vibration or such like that it is ok to say ascribe it to appearant causes. But when dealing with a non-physical pehonema such as consciousness it is rediculous to do so.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Guido Ariba
Are you retarded? Quite possibly. How would I know?
No where in any of my posts have I explained that consciousness is the result of activity in the brain. In post 18 you made this statement.
For example, it has been shown that a high concentration of electrical activity in the brain is related to the level of consciousness in those areas (correct me if I am wrong.) Then in post 33 you corrected
My mistake: I meant that there is a relationship between electrical activity in the brain and consciousness. I will go correct that now. So now we have you stating that these are incorrect statements and that consciousness is not the electrical activity of the brain You now further state that
I have all this time been saying that the interactions between the soul and the electrical and chemical activity in the brain is the cause of active consciousness and coherent free will. Ok, what are the nature of these interactions? The claim is yours that a soul exists and that it is the cause of active consciousness and coherent freewill. The electromagnetic force is mediated by the exchange particle called the photons and this is the force responsible for the electrical and chemical activity in the brain. Since the elctromagnetic force is the second strongest of the four forces in nature can you please explain how the photon is affected by the soul and what the exchange particle that produces the force necessary to interact with the electromagnetic force and why this force does not show up in experiments on the electrical activity and chemical effects in the brain?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
ohnhai Member (Idle past 5191 days) Posts: 649 From: Melbourne, Australia Joined: |
GA writes: We are not dealing with a physical thing. When we deal with physical properties such a states of matter or vibration or such like that it is ok to say ascribe it to appearant causes. But when dealing with a non-physical pehonema such as consciousness it is rediculous to do so. OK my mistake. When I said “ . purely physical consciousness . ” I did not actually mean that consciousness was itself, physical. What I meant was that its cause was purely physical. The physical interactions of our neurons cause the behavior we call consciousness to manifest it self. Try and mentally conceive how 500,000,000 little switches (the combined transistor count for the PS3s Cell Prosessor & RSX graphics chip) could possibly achieve this:
You would be hard pressed indeed. However, that does not matter because we accept that they can because these switches are the brains of a computer. That is what it does. While we take for granted that machines like the PS3 can deliver wondrous graphics and immersive, emotional game-play, it can be all to easy to forget that all of it is achieved by a vast array of very small switches changing their states from 1 to 0 and back again. Is ”Solid Snake’ (the character in the picture) and all his friends, enemies and adventures real? I mean physically real? No, they are not. Yet we perceive them as events and things despite being virtual. Now if these characters and events are not physically real does that necessarily carry that their cause is not physically real? That they had some supernatural cause? Of course not. Any one seriously suggesting so would, quite rightly, be laughed clean out of town as crazy. Now the human brain is put at around 100billion neurons. That is a network of 100 billion little switches all interconnected, each passing the signal on if they in turn get a strong enough signal. This interaction on such a massive scale can and does give rise to non-physical behaviors that are hard (or impossible) to infer from simply studying the mechanics of the connections themselves. Because we cant tell exactly how the brain gives rise to consciousness that is no reason to assume that it can not, or does not. Especially when we know that simple systems can give rise to unplanned complex behavior.
Langton's ant shows that simple rules can give rise to complex behavior, while the PS3 is proof absolute of the power of a large number of little switches to deliver extra ordinary results. With these two facts applied to the human brain it seems almost inconceivable that consciousness isn’t a highly likely natural outcome. At the very least, we should not exhibit any surprise. As far as I can see, there is absolutely NO reason to invoke the supernatural. Edited by ohnhai, : deleated a stray word to improve readability. Edited by ohnhai, : corrected transistor count for PS3 Edited by ohnhai, : fixed Langton's ant link
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
Christian7 Member (Idle past 277 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
I have no problem ascribing physical activites and behaviors to appearent physical causes. It simply doesn't make sense to me to take something non-physical and attribute it to a physical cause. I don't see how physical movement can account for consciousness.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
Christian7 Member (Idle past 277 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
In post 18 you made this statement.
No. That statement was the correction itself. My statement means that consciousness seems to behave in concord with the activity in the brain. This does not mean that the brain causes consciousness. I did not make this clear at first, so it needed to be corrected.
Then in post 33 you corrected
No, I corrected a different statement.
So now we have you stating that these are incorrect statements and that consciousness is not the electrical activity of the brain My statement wasn't clarifying what I wished to convey. I made a mistake when I type it up. The meaning that was behind it was the same. My intent was to say what I finally did when I corrected it. I just mis-used words by mistake.
Ok, what are the nature of these interactions? The claim is yours that a soul exists and that it is the cause of active consciousness and coherent freewill. The electromagnetic force is mediated by the exchange particle called the photons and this is the force responsible for the electrical and chemical activity in the brain. By interaction I don't mean that the soul and the brain are communicating or that there is some kind of signal being transmitted between the two. I am merely saying that the state of the soul is in concord with the state of the brain. Affect the brain and you affect the mind because the mind is the result of the syncronization between the soul and the brain. Destroy the brain, and you destroy the mind, leaving only the potential for consciousness and free will.
Since the elctromagnetic force is the second strongest of the four forces in nature can you please explain how the photon is affected by the soul and what the exchange particle that produces the force necessary to interact with the electromagnetic force and why this force does not show up in experiments on the electrical activity and chemical effects in the brain? The force does not show up because the recieving end of it shows no evidence and the sending end of it is so suttle that it appears as if all that is happening in the brain is a direct result of the previous state of the brain. Edited by Guido Arbia, : No reason given.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
ohnhai Member (Idle past 5191 days) Posts: 649 From: Melbourne, Australia Joined: |
GA writes: I have no problem ascribing physical activites and behaviors to appearent physical causes. It simply doesn't make sense to me to take something non-physical and attribute it to a physical cause. I don't see how physical movement can account for consciousness. I think you are still having the misconception of that Consciousness has to be a thing. It is not. It is simply a name given to the state of mind or group of behaviours that we group together and call Consciousness. It doesn’t have a separate existence at all, it is a concept: one ironically facilitated by the very behaviours that it encompasses. What I don’t get is why, despite the points I have made (which I feel highlight that it is highly probable the root cause of ”consciousness’ is the complex, unplanned, emergent behaviour of our brains own neural activities), the fact that you, have admitted a strong correlation between recorded electrical activity in the brain and when the owner of that brain is engaged in conscious thought, the fact that you still hold the brain physically necessary for thought and action, What I don’t get is why you still insist that consciousness isn’t simply a process of the brain? What good solid evidence do you actually have for consciousness being separate from the mechanisms of the brain?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
Christian7 Member (Idle past 277 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
quote: By consciousness I mean the medium by which we experience sensation, thoughts, and perceptions. What good solid evidence do you have the consciousness is the result of mechanisms in the brain? I don't have enought time right now to throughouly argue against your statement because I am in school. I will post another reply in response to it. Edited by Guido Arbia, : No reason given.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
ohnhai Member (Idle past 5191 days) Posts: 649 From: Melbourne, Australia Joined: |
GA writes: What good solid evidence do you have the consciousness is the result of mechanisms in the brain? OK once again.
All In all fairly convincing I think. A:
Langton’s Ant C: How Does a Traumatic Brain Injury Affect Consciousness? E: The process of awakening: a PET study of regional brain activity patterns mediating the re-establishment of alertness and consciousness.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
Christian7 Member (Idle past 277 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
quote: I can easily imagine that.
quote: Virtual existance does not have a physical cause. It is the combination of our soul and are brain that create the imaginary events in the mind. The computer does not create the virtual existance. The computer just displays images on the screen based on computer programming. I know how because I have coded a break-out game in C++ before. It is just mathematics, really. The events never become real. Only in the mind of a person do the events exist.
quote: This doesn't apply to consciousness because consciousness is not a behavior. Consciousness is experience. It is the true "I am" of a person, something that artificial intellegence cannot produce.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024