I would be happy to let you use "species". Yippee, everybody is happy! But don't try and tell me that they have evolved into new species in the space of 4,000 years. But then you have to get two of each of all of the animal species (and 7 of the clean ones) into the Ark. Oh dear.

But go ahead and dither about penguins anyway. They're interesting creatures.

Wow, talk about avoiding the question. It would seem to me that the "Kinds" explanation put forth by the YECs is fundamental to their argument. So which bird "Kind" did penguins come from?

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deerbreh

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Message 24 of 83 (329000)
07-05-2006 3:01 PM

Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
07-05-2006 2:43 PM

There is no way to know at this point what the original kinds were.

If you don't know what the original kinds were how do you know how many there were and if the Ark could have held tham all?

If I have to guess what a penguin is, I have no trouble saying it's a bird.

How many bird kinds were there? More than one? We know there were doves, so if there was only one bird kind, that means the penguin evolved from a dove in 4,000 years. Sounds pretty hyperevolutionary to me. Penguins are somewhat notorious for a high incidence of gayness. Do you suppose there was a gay gene in the original penguin kind or did that evolve since the Flood?
http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/...ntwork/cns/2002-06-10/591.asp

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deerbreh

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Message 62 of 83 (329393)
07-06-2006 1:50 PM

Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
07-06-2006 3:27 AM

Re: Identifying the kinds is NOT possible! Sorry.

Arachnophilia writes:

so, like i previously suggested, (Kinds are)colloquially equivalent to family, in linnean taxonomy?

Faith writes:

Maybe some, maybe a few, maybe not all, WHO KNOWS??

You really have thought this out, haven't you? And you want to be taken seriously when you talk about "kinds" but you can't even say what they are? How many "kinds" were on the ark? Were all the terrestial animals we see today on the ark or did some have to "swim for it?"

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deerbreh

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Message 67 of 83 (329414)
07-06-2006 2:37 PM

Reply to: Message 64 by Brian
07-06-2006 2:02 PM

Re: I known what you meen!

Brian writes:

Remember the Bible (Leviticus cited) teaches that the bat is a bird.

Well taxonomy was not exactly a strong point for the writer of Leviticus, was it? Does this mean that a penguin and a bat are the same Kind?

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deerbreh

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Message 76 of 83 (329579)
07-07-2006 10:05 AM

Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
07-06-2006 5:27 PM

Re: Identifying the kinds is NOT possible! Sorry.

Penguins could be a "kind" of bird, based on Faith's criteria. But since bats are birds, it is equally possible that penguins are fish.

I say they are warm blooded reptiles.

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deerbreh

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Message 79 of 83 (329634)
07-07-2006 2:10 PM

Reply to: Message 78 by Brad McFall
07-07-2006 1:46 PM

Re: Identifying the kinds is NOT possible! Sorry.

Are you saying penguins are in the monotreme kind? But don't they have reptilian/bird scales? OTOH monotremes do have a cloaca and I assume penquins do also. Penguins do have feathers and I belive monotremes have fur. One would think that feathers are an ancestral character rather than a derived character (not that this matters if we are talking special creation) because fur should work just as well for insulation whether in water or land.

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deerbreh

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Message 81 of 83 (329642)
07-07-2006 2:46 PM

Reply to: Message 80 by Brad McFall
07-07-2006 2:26 PM

Re: Identifying the kinds is NOT possible! Sorry.

From my experience watching "March of the Penguins" it did seem that the penguin egg was very bird like (hard calcified shelled) vs reptile-like (leathery shell). I don't know what a monotreme egg is like. Is warmbloodedness monophyletic?

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deerbreh

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Message 83 of 83 (329654)
07-07-2006 4:17 PM

Reply to: Message 82 by Coragyps
07-07-2006 3:24 PM

Re: Identifying the kinds is NOT possible! Sorry.

Ok then. Well anyway penguins are clearly birds. What "kind" they are in the Biblical sense is another matter.

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