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Author Topic:   If God is dead, does mankind become God?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 1 of 109 (332290)
07-16-2006 6:42 PM


I would like to know how many of you react to that which I believe to be inevitable:
the idea that if God is dead, someone has to take His place, because life without a 'sovereign reality' is unlivable. We all must have a purpose or we cannot get out of bed in the morning. For some it is pleasure, for others it is carrying their cross. Their are as many truths that fuel a man as there are cultures. Without a purpose, or a belief that one's purpose has been lost, many take their own lives.
As support for that conclusion, I offer the parable by Friedrich Nietzsche. It seems to me that he believed this parable with enormous conviction. The life of the nihilist is one of despair; the longing for God, yet the inability to accept Him. The fear that he has built the wall so high, that God cannot rescue him. The burden of being responsible to correct the wrongs of this life. God forbid mankind should take the reigns of this universe, and I certainly believe He has forbidden it...
What strikes me is the power of the parable, and it's parrallels to reality (reality as I see it of course). It is as though Nietzsche was forced to see the truth regarding sovereignty, yet he could not see the trees for the forest.
Perhaps Nietzche was simply caught in the trap of fearing men. Maybe he was a preacher at heart, but was beaten down by the mob. He was a Christian in the beggining, and I believe his father was a Lutheran minister. In the end, he found ways to preach the striking truths of reality, but I am not certain that he was even aware of how clever he was. I am not convinced he was a man of God. But that does not preclude God from using a man. Even evil proves right the ways of God.
I do not intend to engage everyone on this topic, I mainly want to study your reactions. Specifically those of you who were unfamilliar with this parable until now.
THE MADMAN
Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: "I seek God! I seek God!"
As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter. 'Has he got lost?' asked one. 'Did he lose his way like a child?' asked another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated? Thus they yelled and laughed.
The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. "Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him- you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him."
"How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us---for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto."
Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than most distant stars---and yet they have done it themselves."
It has been related further that on the same day the madman forced his way into several churches and there struck up his requiem aeternam deo. Led out and called to account, he is said always to have replied nothing but: "What after all are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of God?"
Source: Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science (1882, 1887) para. 125. Walter Kaufmann ed. (New York: Vintage, 1974), pp.181-82.

Any biters in the stream?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminFaith, posted 07-16-2006 6:44 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 3 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-16-2006 6:55 PM Rob has replied
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 07-16-2006 7:06 PM Rob has replied
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 07-16-2006 7:06 PM Rob has replied
 Message 7 by CK, posted 07-16-2006 7:25 PM Rob has replied
 Message 72 by smegma, posted 07-19-2006 3:29 PM Rob has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 6 of 109 (332309)
07-16-2006 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
07-16-2006 7:06 PM


Hi Faith!
You're probably right and I intend to put to use some lessons that we're hard won. Surveying the responses thus far, I am greatly encouraged...
Always learning, and forever greatful, Rob

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 Message 4 by Faith, posted 07-16-2006 7:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 8 of 109 (332319)
07-16-2006 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by macaroniandcheese
07-16-2006 6:55 PM


i don't think it's necessary that anything become god.
I see what you mean to say.
However, philosophically speaking, God is reality (whatever God may be), reality is truth, and truth is the motivator, or the goal. So in that way, if there is no direction (or God), then that is God. In which case our friend Eisenhower was speaking nonsense.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 07-16-2006 9:05 PM Rob has replied
 Message 14 by lfen, posted 07-16-2006 9:24 PM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 9 of 109 (332324)
07-16-2006 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
07-16-2006 7:06 PM


People who find life -with- a 'sovereign reality' to be unlivable, should consult a psychiatrist in order to have that depression treated.
I assume you meant to say without?, so that is how I will respond...
It is nice to be with you agian nwr. I suppose you would be willing to give up your reality with ease? It is my experience that most will hold on to their own truths like a bulldog. Perhpas you are unawre how sovereign your own worldview is philosophically. Well, that's what this is all about.
A striking figure once said that a rich man had as much chance of entering heaven as a Camel through the eye of a needle. A man riches are far greater than his pocketbook. Many a man would exchange gold for the riches of happiness in countless ways. Yes!
I wouldn't worry about my depression nwr, you have more than one man can endure yourself. Fortunately, I know a great healer. His methods forever amaze and astound me.
Keep in mind that if you want to question me in the way you have, that you must invoke a sovereign reality...
May God be with you, Rob

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 07-16-2006 7:06 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by nwr, posted 07-16-2006 8:27 PM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 10 of 109 (332328)
07-16-2006 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by CK
07-16-2006 7:25 PM


we all manage to get out of bed in the morning, just fine.
I don't doubt that at all. So, tell me CK, what do you live for? (keep it short if not on topic please)
that story is about the shifting cultural norms of europe away from a collective belief in the christian god concept.
That rings true with me as well. What I found striking is that he confirms (logically and philosophically) that God or no God, man has need for a reason or purpose. I am stunned at how close he came to simply preaching the gospel! It amazes me to no end how few souls get it!
His was a proclaimation of the divinity of man (without God) as opposed to the divinity of man (in Christ). He meant it literally! If one sovereign reality is dead, then the truth becomes part of another sovereign reality.
No matter how you slice it... reality is inescapable!
If I am wrong about that, then you rest my case!
Edited by Rob, : resting your case...

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Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by nator, posted 07-18-2006 9:31 AM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 13 of 109 (332352)
07-16-2006 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by nwr
07-16-2006 8:27 PM


I don't claim ownership of reality. Rather, I deal with it as I find it.
You and I would agree on that point. Even if 2+2=4 and we accept and promote that, I don't think it could be said we are claiming ownership. After all, reality precedes us and created us, whatever it actually is in the end. But surely in the end it is something that exculudes all of the other possibilities. If it does not, then it excludes what I just sugested.
Reality is exclusive necessarily!
I'm skeptical of worldview ideas in philosophy, particularly as they are used by fundamentalist theologians. They use it to hide from the fact that their theology is out of touch with reality.
In any case, my own world view is constantly under revision, and has changed greatly over the last 15 years.
I don't know anyone who's worldview does not alter on a daily basis... Your skepticism is based itself in a worldview. Such circular reasoning is more evidence of hiding than those who know that truth is exclusive and have the boldness to say so, irrespective of the changing political environment.
A striking figure once said that a rich man had as much chance of entering heaven as a Camel through the eye of a needle.
I'm quite familiar with that text. It seem to pose more of a problem for fundamentalists than it does for me, for a desire for riches has never been a driving force in my life.
Everyone tries to make that statement out to be only about money. I find it appealing to far more than that. In the monetary sense, it shows us that we cannot buy our way into heaven as many Jews in the cultural context thought they could.
In it's entire sense it cuts to the heart of the matter because we have to ask why they cannot buy their way to heaven. Mankind does not like to give up control of his life. It is a power struggle. Giving up one's philosophical perspective (worldview) in exchange for reality (Christ) is next to impossible for the rich (in spirit). Rich in power and wealthy in pride!
As one who has given up my own truth in exchange for reality, I have to be even more careful to remember these things. The gifts I was given in return for my life are far more valuable than my own posessions ever could have been. If I forget that they are not my own, and that I did not earn them (as I have done from time to time) then I defeat the purpose for which they were given.
My humility is not based in any false attempt to cover my sins. My sins are appearent to all. I simply repent in dust and ashes, as there is no other course for a man living in Christ.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 15 of 109 (332359)
07-16-2006 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by crashfrog
07-16-2006 9:05 PM


So, in other words, the word "God" means everything, every definition possible; and therefore means nothing.
Reality means a lot of things to a lot of people. whatever that is, that is their God. It is what they worship, and obey. It is their assumed purpose and all of their starting assumptions. It doesn't make it true, just as if I believe that 2+2=5. It just shows that we cannot escape worshiping something that assumes itself to be reality.
I guess that if you define "God" to arbitrarily mean whatever you decide it means, and at that point, mankind - or anything else - can very well be "God". But if you think you've communicated a useful idea at that point, you're mistaken.
I disagree! If it is true, it is very meaningful indeed! All of reality hangs in the balance in thinking about such things with honesty and clarity.
If it is false, then it is not simply false, but a damnable lie!
The implications are tremendous...
That is why Jesus' claim to be the way, the truth and the life are the most extraordinary claim. If true, it is the most true thing ever told. If false, the most destructive and evil of all utterance.

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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 16 of 109 (332365)
07-16-2006 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by lfen
07-16-2006 9:24 PM


However, philosophically speaking, God is reality (whatever God may be), reality is truth, and truth is the motivator, or the goal. So in that way, if there is no direction (or God), then that is God. In which case our friend Eisenhower was speaking nonsense.
Well, I don't know about Eisenhower but here you are speaking nonsense.
Sorry for the confusion Ifen. It was kind of an inside joke. I was reffering to brennakimi's signature line See her profile):
quote:
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed; those who are cold and are not clothed.
My point was that Eisenhower was making sense and she appears to find it meaningful (personally I agree). But if reality is actually nonsensicle, then his comments are meaningless.
My point is that few of us would suggest for long that God is directionless or purposeless. Perhaps you are one of them, but not if you seek meaningful commentary. I hope that I can provide it for you.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by lfen, posted 07-16-2006 9:55 PM Rob has replied
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 20 of 109 (332389)
07-16-2006 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by lfen
07-16-2006 9:55 PM


Sense or nonsense is not a property of "What Is in Itself." Sense is a property of language. It is a meta judgement on the formation of syntactical statements in the language, and independent of the truth or falsity of the statement. "B+A+-shaving left handed=not my big toe" is nonsense in math. 2+2=5 makes sense in math. It's false, but it's not nonsense, whereas it's hard to say if the following lines are true or false, but they are nonsense, delightful though they be:
You are confusing levels of abstraction. True, falsity, sense, nonsense are properties of abstractions that refer to nameless What Is in Itself.
I am confusing nothing!
I believe that all of what you said is in yourself. So for you it is true. That is the insanity of narcisism. It is an abstraction limited to syntactical statements not respective to truth or falsity. i do not include myself in your universe. My world is larger than you.
Thank you for sharing what is neither sense nor nonsense, truth nor fiction. Just the mystery of Babylon.
However, I would like to thank you in part for adding support to my suggestion that without God, man becomes God. In your case, God is appearently a simple projection of ourselves onto the universe around us. Everything revolves around the self. And that is my point.
You very likely cannot understand this, but others will see it.
Without God, man is his own god, which is precisely what the serpent said to Eve in the garden... 'Did God really say...' 'You shall not surely die, your eye's will be opened and you shall become as God!'

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Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 07-16-2006 11:14 PM Rob has replied
 Message 28 by lfen, posted 07-16-2006 11:50 PM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 22 of 109 (332394)
07-16-2006 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by nwr
07-16-2006 9:55 PM


I think you have adopted "wordview" as a second God.
Instead of saying "God did it" for everything you don't understand, you now sometimes say "God did it" and sometimes you say "Worldview did it."
Look buddy, what I am saying is very simple. It is very clear! It matters little what you think about it, or how you interpret it.
It is not a second God, it is God.
Our world-view, is our philosophy, is our God!
They are one in the same and it is what we all obey...
Now you may play interesting games by not adhering to a worldview. That does not dismiss you from this truth, because you are obeying a strategy in doing so. A strategy of defiance. A strategy of rebellion; of destruction and obfuscation. A strategy of chaos! A worldview of cynycism. A God of destruction!

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 24 of 109 (332396)
07-16-2006 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by ringo
07-16-2006 11:14 PM


Those who feel a need for a god are lacking something within themselves. Those who are complete have no need for external "gods".
There you go! It is not necessary to be a Christian or theist to see that truth! Thank you Ringo...
Of course beyond that point we would likely differ. Such as:
If there is no God, or God is dead or what have you, then as my personal favorite philosopher has said,
'something or someone has to take it's place. Either megolamania or erotomania, the clenched fist or the phallus, Hitler or Hugh Hefner.'

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 26 of 109 (332400)
07-16-2006 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by nwr
07-16-2006 11:25 PM


Our world-view, is our philosophy, is our God!
Then your God is your own invention.
Clearly, that is very possible, and a danger for all since each man's choice to define something so essential affects all of mankind around him.
That is why the first and second commandments dealt with this issue first.
1. I am the Lord thine God and thou shall have no other God.
2. Thou shall not create God in your own image.

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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 27 of 109 (332402)
07-16-2006 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
07-16-2006 11:31 PM


The need for an external god is like a need for heroin. Once one acquires the addiction, it is hard to get rid of it. A substitute, such as methadone, can be less harmful.
God is all of one's truth assumptions and the parts and whole of his worldview. It is what he lives for. Heroin would be a replacement for God, and I think more harmful.
those who have never had the addiction have no need for a substitute.
You have no need for truth Ringo??? Then what are you talking about? God and truth are synonomous which is why Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, etc.
You having no need for God is like saying you have no need for truth. Does that mean you speak lies? (comedy!)
If you have no need for truth, then you must know it. Please share God with me Ringo, because I need Him...
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : I'm just stupid

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 31 of 109 (332406)
07-16-2006 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by lfen
07-16-2006 11:50 PM


Re: Is a rock true or false?
Is that rock true or false?
If it is true, then we have in our hand a piece of reality. If it is false, then we have in our hand what we perceive as reality.
God offers the one, you prefer to keep the other. A choice is a choice. J
ust because you believe you cannot know, does not mean that others don't. After all, if you say that I cannot know the truth, you must invoke omniscience of your own to make the claim. That is self defeating.
Please go back to kindergarten with your games. I have no need for a pied piper, and neither does any imaginary audience in this hall of clowns who whisper to each other the beautiful things they love to hear.

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 33 of 109 (332408)
07-17-2006 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
07-16-2006 11:52 PM


"Truth" is not an absolute. It is only what we internalize.
That would be an absolute if it were true. Unfortunately, self contradictory statements are always false.

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