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Author Topic:   Sad what creationism can do to a mind, part 2
Jeptha
Guest


Message 231 of 258 (34309)
03-13-2003 5:23 PM


In address to the administrator:
Creationists and evolutionists interpret the supposed fossil evidence for transitionals differently.
JEP: Very true. The evolutionists have a tendency to dismiss the fossil record because there is no evidence in it at all, in its overall continuum, that will substanciate transitionals, macroevolution, gradualistic neo-darwinism, or punctuated equilibrium (here-in-after referred to as punk-eek). There is simply nothing there to support their pseudo-science wrapped in a religion called evolution.
Creationists whole-heartedly embrace the fossil record. The paramount reason is that it is a fact that the fossil record is an accurate record that synopsizes over 80% of the earth’s biotic record.
And evolutionists are aghast to find that gradualism is actually refuted by the fossil record. Instead of a gradual evolution from protist to homo-sapien we would find if neo-darwinism were valid, we find just the opposite. The record shows long periods of stasis, followed by intense bursts of speciation, actually suggesting some type of progressive creationism.
That Creationists and evolutionists have a different take on the necessity of producing a complete evolutionary descent tree before evolution can be considered sufficiently supported by the evidence.
JEP: There is no such a thing as a ‘descent tree and absolutely nothing in any area of science that would suggest common descent if a person examines the evidence with an open mind. There’s even nothing in science that suggests simple speciation. In fact, I would refer the reader to Michael Behe’s excellent book, Darwin’s Black Box.
Chapter 2 of Dr. Behe's book is titled The Natives are Restless. It starts out with Lynn Margulis, a distinguished university professor of biology at UMass. She is highly respected for her widely accepted theory that mitochondria, the energy source of plant & animal cells, were once independent bacterial cells. (endosymbiosis)
Her challenge, to molecular biologists is this:
Name a single, unambiguous example of a new species by the accumulation of mutations.
In the book Behe states the challenge goes unmet. That has been about 8 years and the challenge still goes unmet.
I'll let personal jabs go for the time being, but if they start to get in the way of discussion then they'll have to stop.
JEP: Thank you. You will find that Scott and Randy and I cannot debate without them. They are not meant to hurt but are simply Red Herrings which are very useful tools in debate and taught in every speech 101 class.

Replies to this message:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 232 of 258 (34315)
03-13-2003 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Jeptha
03-13-2003 5:23 PM


Care for a wager?
JEP,
quote:
JEP: Very true. The evolutionists have a tendency to dismiss the fossil record because there is no evidence in it at all, in its overall continuum, that will substanciate transitionals, macroevolution, gradualistic neo-darwinism, or punctuated equilibrium (here-in-after referred to as punk-eek). There is simply nothing there to support their pseudo-science wrapped in a religion called evolution.
Say US$1,000 that I can provide something that supports all you say has nothing in support of it?
I will happily go higher if you can. The only proviso is that the evidence is acceptable in science, & the wagers are held by a trusted (by both of us) third party(ies) before I commence.
OK?
Percy/Admin, will you hold the wagers? TC is an admin here too, & given he is also a creationist, I will accept him as a judge alongside Percy, or any other Evo, if Percy isn't interested.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Jeptha, posted 03-13-2003 5:23 PM Jeptha has not replied

  
Jeptha
Guest


Message 233 of 258 (34316)
03-13-2003 7:02 PM


Is it science, or something else? This is an excellent topic for debate in relation to the discussions that I have thus far encountered here. I want to assure the reader that what the PhDs have been teaching the readers of this forum from what I have encountered is about as far from science as a lightning bug is from lighting. In fact, their tenets are not science but simply another religion cloaked and disguised as science.
Webster’s Dictionary would define secular humanism something like this: "Any system or mode of thought or action in which human interests, values, or dignity predominate."
Secular Humanism has been around as long as man himself. But in the past it certainly has not been the organized movement we have observed with this doctrine over the last thirty years or so, especially in the Western world.
Its roots and dogmas can be found in the musings of theorists as far back as classical Greek philosophers such as the Stoics and Epicureans as well as in Chinese Confucianism.
In short, and just like the version of Secular Humanism today, these philosophical views looked to human beings rather than gods to solve mankind’s problems.
In our modern age, Secular Humanism is a worldview. Is it another religion? Yes.
In fact, certain Secular Humanists will openly admit that they are following a religion. It’s just a religion that rejects all gods and places man front and foremost as the semi-divine ruler of the cosmos.
In the Humanist Manifesto, Secular Humanism is candidly defined as a religion: Humanism is A philosophical, religious, and moral point of view.
Most Secular Humanists will openly admit that they are atheists having no belief at all in the concept of God or gods. But even if we view Humanism as a mere body of thought, when this philosophy is combined with atheism, it becomes a very real religion.
Faith may be defined as a belief in something where there is no physical, forensic evidence to support that belief.
I believe in my God. But I certainly could never be silly enough to employ a CAT scan to show you my soul. I could not ask my internist to find the Holy Spirit living in my heart with his stethoscope. I won’t even bother trying to beam you down pictures of God via the C.O.B.E satellite. I believe in God although there is certainly no physical evidence I can show you that He exists. Yes, I’m a religious type of guy.
How then, is an active belief system that dogmatically espouses that God does NOT exist any different? There is certainly no evidence that an atheist can show me proving there is no God. Therefore, the atheist, just as I, has formed a belief system utilizing no forensic evidence to support it. And if my positive belief in God is a religion, then the belief in the negative is just as surely a religion. The atheist steps out on faith just as I do.
Humanist Paul Kurtz, publisher of Prometheus Books and editor of Free Inquiry magazine, says "Humanism cannot in any fair sense of the word apply to one who still believes in God as the source and creator of the universe."
Corliss Lamont seems to agree and puts it rather succinctly: Humanism contends that instead of the gods creating the cosmos, the cosmos, in the individualized form of human beings giving rein to their imagination, created the gods.
Secular humanism, then, is a mortal and temporal philosophy which brushes aside the concept of gods and centers upon human concerns.
The typical Humanist might relate that rational thought and the scientific method is employed to address the trials and torments of human beings. Not some silly god concept. And to accomplish this viewpoint, Secular Humanism espouses commitment to its own set of principles which seek to promote development of tolerance and compassion among its adherents utilizing the methods of science, old fashioned brain-power via critical analysis, and philosophical rumination.
So what is wrong with climbing into the scientific method, fresh ideas, critical reason, factual evidence, and objective reality and utilizing these methods to govern one’s actions?
Nothing, if that person is looking for a cure for cancer, but everything if one is seeking those things spiritual; because objective reality is simply the antithesis of spiritual perception.
Is there any Christian naive enough to think that his surgeons actually saw Jesus Christ living in his heart when he had that faulty aortic valve replaced on the operating table? No, because the spiritual realm cannot be viewed with the eyes but must be examined introspectively through the spirit.
I have discovered a common thread among Secular Humanists, from all over the world, after years of conversing with them and debating them over the Internet. The Humanists that are into philosophy seem to lionize the writings of philosopher Karl Popper.
Popper was a thinker and I enjoy his work as well but vehemently disagree with some of his conclusions. Popper’s thinking was instrumental in revising our scientific theories and separating theory out of the specter of law.
Popper mused that truth should not be deduced from theory simply because a theory has withstood the most rigorous testing. And even though we might acknowledge that such a theory has received a high measure of validation; and may be conditionally retained, it is still only the best available theory until it is falsified (if it is ever falsified), or until it is superseded by a better theory.
Popper further mused that truth is objective reality. Objective reality must be able to withstand falsification and must be able to be falsified if evidence to falsify it comes into the scenario. Further, objective reality is observable by any independent observer who wishes to do so.
Want to show that there is a moon in the sky? Not a problem. Just bring in all of the independent observers who have seen the moon. The astronomers who have studied it via telescope will also be useful. The men who have walked on the moon will be invaluable in showing its existence. Finally, any person who wants to look up in the sky and see the moon for him self is quite welcomed to do so.
The fact that a moon exists is objective reality and solid, indisputable truth.
*BUZZER* No tid-bit of philosophy could be more wrong or further from realism if we grasp Popper’s assertion that this is the solitary way to discern truth.
The fact is that there exists another phenomenon that I term subjective reality and it is just as real a truth as is objective reality.
Subjective reality is just the opposite from objective reality and can be just as authentic truistically to an individual as its antithesis, yet not observable or subject to falsification by anyone but me.
Do I love my wife? Think so? Prove it using Popper’s objective reality. You can ask me, but I’ll lie to you. So, you notice how kind I am to her and you think this denotes love? Nope. I just have learned that this is the best way to keep peace in the family. I do love the kids and want to father them for the rest of my life. So, isn’t this in my best interest to just pretend I love my wife?
The fact is that whatever I feel about my wife is very real and absolute truth to me, yet this truth is not objective reality because no one but me can observe this phenomenon in order to deduce this truth. And try to falsify it. You can’t. Does this mean that my true feelings and intentions are not true just because you can’t observe them?
What is my favorite color? I will lie to you if you ask me and all of those blue suits I wear are just to fool you.
What are my moral standings? The truth is that I stand for affirmative action. But I will not admit this to you because the position is so unfavorable politically. So, prove, using the objective reality criteria, that internally I either do, or do not, support affirmative action. What is truth on this issue?
Get my drift? There can be a very real truth that cannot withstand the forensic process. The concept of my God falls under the label of subjective reality. It’s there. It’s real. It’s solid, inarguable truth to me. But there is nothing objective about it.
Most prevalent in American society is the fomenting of this body of thought called Secular Humanism throughout our schools. This religion dominates our schools when there is an active lobby by the same group of people to keep religion out of our schools.
No, Secular Humanism is not science, but their henotheistic god is science governing several other lesser gods that encompass the foremost religion.
Erwin Schrodinger, one of the greatest Nobel winning physicists of all time once stated: I'm very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world is very deficient. It gives a lot of factual information, puts all our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight, knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.
Amen, Erwin. I can’t take the arguments of Secular Humanists seriously at all. Why? Because we shall soon see that their misguided ‘science’ is not science at all but pseudo-science that violates the most basic theories and laws of the real McCoy. Let’s take them on in their own subject: a god called science. That is, if they are not afraid to debate us. Scott?????

Replies to this message:
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Jeptha
Guest


Message 234 of 258 (34318)
03-13-2003 7:16 PM


"Say US$1,000 that I can provide something that supports all you say has nothing in support of it?"
JEP: Nah...not a gambling man. But if you think you can do this, please don't throw silly obstacles in the path to impede progress, just do it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by mark24, posted 03-13-2003 7:43 PM You have not replied

     
mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 235 of 258 (34322)
03-13-2003 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Jeptha
03-13-2003 7:16 PM


JEP,
I'm not putting obstacles in the way, I'm putting my money where my mouth is. Not feeling so confident now?
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
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Jeptha
Guest


Message 236 of 258 (34325)
03-13-2003 9:20 PM


Yes, but you are not putting your intellect where your mouth is. There is no need for arm waving or grandstanding, and I am feeling quite confident. Just attack the argument if you can. If you cannot, then perhaps you might want to go play on the junior level somewhere. The argument has been expressed, the PhDs seemed to have disappeared, so want a go at me? Do it. If not, quit posting to me and go play checkers with Barney the Dinosaur or something.

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by mark24, posted 03-14-2003 4:19 AM You have not replied

     
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 258 (34326)
03-13-2003 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Jeptha
03-13-2003 5:23 PM


Behe
Mr Jephta,
Given that you entertain Behe's views, do you also agree with him that the fossil record is good evidence for common descent and macroevolution? I read that Prof Behe once admits that he has no problem in accepting the genetic evidence of the common ancestry of chimps and man.
As for speciation, don't we already have many examples of it? Tragopogon, Faeroe mouse, Ensatina ring species, lake cichlids?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Jeptha, posted 03-13-2003 5:23 PM Jeptha has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 238 of 258 (34333)
03-14-2003 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Jeptha
03-13-2003 9:20 PM


Feeling Confident?
JEP,
quote:
Yes, but you are not putting your intellect where your mouth is. There is no need for arm waving or grandstanding, and I am feeling quite confident. Just attack the argument if you can. If you cannot, then perhaps you might want to go play on the junior level somewhere. The argument has been expressed, the PhDs seemed to have disappeared, so want a go at me? Do it. If not, quit posting to me and go play checkers with Barney the Dinosaur or something.
But I AM putting my intellect where my mouth is. If I don't come up with the goods I lose the argument & $1,000.
Am I the only one who finds it strange that a creationist feeling confident doesn't feel able to make a bet? Not that confident, I guess.
Mark

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Jeptha, posted 03-13-2003 9:20 PM Jeptha has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5902 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 239 of 258 (34336)
03-14-2003 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Jeptha
03-13-2003 7:02 PM


Nice tirade against the philosophy of secular humanism, if a tad long-winded. However, it is completely off-topic. For example, the only place you mention science at all is here:
So what is wrong with climbing into the scientific method, fresh ideas, critical reason, factual evidence, and objective reality and utilizing these methods to govern one’s actions?
Nothing, if that person is looking for a cure for cancer, but everything if one is seeking those things spiritual; because objective reality is simply the antithesis of spiritual perception.
Guess what? No evolutionary biologist is seeking "things spiritual". They seek to understand the natural world (emphasis on natural) and the diversity of life. They ARE looking for a cure for cancer, among other things. Other than your dismissal of Popper's epistemology, you have not bothered to address the topic of the thread or even the topic of this forum: Is It [referring to evolution] Science? You certainly haven't offered any alternative, or even discussion.
My question to you, then, is: was there a point in your post, and/or will there be one in our future?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Jeptha, posted 03-13-2003 7:02 PM Jeptha has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 240 of 258 (34343)
03-14-2003 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Jeptha
03-13-2003 7:02 PM


What?
quote:
In fact, their tenets are not science but simply another religion cloaked and disguised as science.
I read through your whole poist, expecting to hear how the tenets of science are religious, but that never happened.
All you did was rant about secular humanism philosophy.
That's nice, but where did you get the idea that all scientists are secular humanists?

This message is a reply to:
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Jeptha
Guest


Message 241 of 258 (34388)
03-14-2003 3:49 PM


Hello Andya. Hope you’re having a great day!
Given that you entertain Behe's views
JEP: I entertain everyone’s views. That doesn’t mean that I subscribe to ALL of their ideas or posits.
do you also agree with him that the fossil record is good evidence for common descent and macroevolution? I read that Prof Behe once admits that he has no problem in accepting the genetic evidence of the common ancestry of chimps and man.
JEP: I don’t believe that is accurate. Next time I talk to Michael, I will ask him. But if that is true, then no, I don’t agree with him. God created man. The evidence in the fossil record points us that direction.
As for speciation, don't we already have many examples of it? Tragopogon, Faeroe mouse, Ensatina ring species, lake cichlids?
JEP: No, there is not one non-controversial account of speciation ever occurring that everyone can agree on. There are some examples on the Net, yes. But I think you will find if you really delve into these that the scientific method was not followed in the research. All are either home cooked organisms in the lab, or the definition of species is played with to achieve the desired effect. Thanks for the post!

Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 13046
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 242 of 258 (34391)
03-14-2003 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Jeptha
03-14-2003 3:49 PM


Jeptha writes:
No, there is not one non-controversial account of speciation ever occurring that everyone can agree on. There are some examples on the Net, yes. But I think you will find if you really delve into these that the scientific method was not followed in the research. All are either home cooked organisms in the lab, or the definition of species is played with to achieve the desired effect. Thanks for the post!
Two points. First, you have to support these assertions. Second, and this is only a request for clarification, your position might appear somewhat out of the ordinary to evolutionists here if you're objecting to speciation, because almost all Creationists accept speciation. It is evolution across kind boundaries that Creationists commonly object to.
------------------
--EvC Forum Administrator

This message is a reply to:
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Jeptha
Guest


Message 243 of 258 (34396)
03-14-2003 5:19 PM


Two points. First, you have to support these assertions.
JEP: Well, I don’t really feel I would have to support a negative assertion for the very same reason that I do not ask the non-believers to ‘prove’ there is no God. It is impossible to prove a negative because if the negative is true, it would not be present to leave any evidence I could offer.
Second, and this is only a request for clarification, your position might appear somewhat out of the ordinary to evolutionists here if you're objecting to speciation, because almost all Creationists accept speciation.
JEP: I would be glad to clarify. And, I as well used to allow speciation into my belief system. And to be quite frank, there are some examples I feel are close in showing speciation, yet when I examine them scientifically, I always seem to find something lacking in the scientific method that leads to the researcher’s conclusion of speciation.
By far my biggest concern is that most all of these claims of speciation occur in a lab. But this goes against the very definition of species which (if we are talking sexual reproduction) might be defined as any two organisms that can interbreed and produce viable, fertile offspring and do so in the wild (naturallyunaided). A lab setting is hardly ‘in the wild.’
It is evolution across kind boundaries that Creationists commonly object to.
JEP: Sorry, I’m not a Bible literalist and don’t believe in ‘kinds.’ I get my religious beliefs via science, logic and experience. Sadly enough, most creationists come by their beliefs from other creationists and not in college science classes.

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by mark24, posted 03-14-2003 5:23 PM You replied
 Message 246 by Admin, posted 03-14-2003 6:00 PM You replied

     
mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 244 of 258 (34398)
03-14-2003 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Jeptha
03-14-2003 5:19 PM


Jep,
Please use the "reply" button at the bottom of the post you reply to, rather than the big fella at the bottom. It makes it easier to keep track of who replied to who. It's obvious you're replying to Percy now, but in several pages time, it won't be, since people post replies over several pages as a rule.
Thanks,
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Jeptha, posted 03-14-2003 5:19 PM Jeptha has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jeptha
Guest


Message 245 of 258 (34399)
03-14-2003 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by mark24
03-14-2003 5:23 PM


Oh I see. I didn't even notice that other button. Thanks!

This message is a reply to:
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