Knowing God

Its never been asked as far as I can recall. It is a very good question - especially so if Jesus is real and what he says is true. Its very similar to the way we know anything is real, really. As living creatures we have 5 physical senses and have concluded for ourselves that the data which enters our brains via these 5 senses constitutes objective evidence about the reality we occupy. When we die these 5 senses cease to function. No evidence is transmitted to the organism and there is no organism to receive information. This doesn't mean the objective reality has disappeared - rather it is the sensors and the receptor for evidence which has ceased to exist.Similarly, the position of people who are "born again" is that they become spiritually alive. Once alive then they are equipped to pick up the evidence about the reality of God in the same way as eyes pick up evidence about the nature of reality. Prior to being "born again" a person is spiritually dead to the things of God. They are like a switched off radio. The radio signal exists (God) but the radio is unable to pick up the signal because it is not turned on or tuned in.Physically we start of alive and tuned in then die. Spiritually we start of dead and either are made alive and receptive or remain dead.How does one know this is real? In the same way as we know that what our eyes and ears transmit to us about the world is real. We just know it. There is no proof that what our eyes and ears tranmit is true - we just know that it is. In order to know you had that relationship then you would have to have evidence for it. You would need the same assurance that you have when your eyes, ears and touch assure you about the physical reality around you. If you did not then you could never be sure that you weren't fooling yourself or subject to some delusion or other. It would have to have that same quality that lets you know what you know - irrespective of what others say. Their opinion could not influence what you know if you had evidence sufficient to convince you.And the evidence you would have is called faith. And faith (the evidence) would be supplied to you by God. He would reveal himself to you - in other words. If he did then you would know he existed and that you have that relationship. Below is a recent post on what faith is. The key point to note is that it is not something you work up in yourself but something that he supplies to you. A word about faithIts not about doing anything wrong, its not about trying to be good. As far as he is concerned everybody is born 'bad'. Everybody is spiritually dead and they all need to be made spiritually alive. To be radios switched on. And he is the one who makes a person spiritually alive. He switches them on.The way he does this is to bring the person to the point of realising that they need him. And when a person is brought to that point then he will bring them to spiritual life. The person can refuse to be brought to that point in which case they will never be brought to spiritual life. They cannot do anything to make him switch them on as such. They can only prevent him doing so.This may sound confusing - especially given what Faith has said above. But put it this way. If you were concerned about your not having a relationship with him, if you found yourself trying to read the Bible in an effort to find him, if you found yourself asking an unbelieved in God to help you find him etc then that is a result of him putting those needs into you. He acts upon all people in this way. He attempts to bring them to see their need for him. And when they do (however this is manifest) they will cry out to him for that relationship. As as soon as they do then he acts so as to form that realtionship. If a person refuses to be convinced of their need of him then he will respect their wishes - he won't come. There isn't much point in going into this too deeply. At the end of the day (no insult intended) a person who is spiritually dead to God is spiritually blind. Blindness is the predominant description of a spiritually dead person in the Bible (there is a spiritual message behind Jesus healing so many physically blind people). So explaining what it is like is like trying to explain the colour red to a physically blind person.Peace: I can remember the morning after the night when I recognised my need for him and cried out. I sensed something had changed fundementally. There was a sense of peace about things which descended over me. Everything (irrespective of what might happen to me from now on: bike crashes, job loss, sickness, death) was going to be "okay". I subsequently read about "a peace beyond all understanding" in the Bible. We don't realise how much we actually worry about things until such time as the worry is removedFreedom: we all have things about us which we would like to change: a short temper, an addiction, meaness, cruelty - whatever. Very often we manage to keep the worst excesses of these things in check through sheer self-control. We may be afraid of the consequences were full expression of these things were they to be seen by others. But these things sit like monkeyss on our backs: always there lurking in the background waiting to come out. One of the things he promises he will do is to transform us. "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind" says Paul in Romans 12. He actually changes our way of thinking so that these monkeys dissappear. We find we think differently about things. This is a process: sometimes things are removed straightaway, sometimes they are dissolved over time as we cooperate with him in being changed. But he promises that come hell or high water we will be changed - even if we decide to make it tough for him to do so. "If the son sets you free, you will be free indeed". Again we often don't realize how weighed down we are until the weight is removed "come to me all ye who are heavily burdened and I will give you rest" he says.Foregiveness: we all carry around guilt and shame. More than we know. We have all done things in the past that we accept (if we are not in total denial) were wrong. That time has passed doesn't mean that the shame and guilt are gone. It just sits there and we move on - getting used to carrying the burden of it. Although it is against others we have acted it is also an offence against God. And he can forgive us that. Indeed he promises he will do so if a person has a relationship with him "If we ask, he is gracious and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" Again it is one of those things that we won't fully realise we are burdened down with until such time as it is removed. When it is removed then we feel as if a great weight has been removed from our shoulders. And we can always avail of having that burden removed in the future when we sin and the guilt and shame come back. We only have to ask.No fear of death: I know where I am going when I die. I might not look forward to the process of dying but I don't fear death itself. In fact I look forward to it. To be free of the shackles which make a full relationship with him impossible. When I die, there will be nothing to interfere with knowing him fully. He is very attractive and to know him more is a constant yearning. You get to hate sin because it interferes with that relationshipLove: Lets face it, loving and being loved is the greatest thing on earth. Nothing trumps it. Whilst it is nice to love kids and to have kids love back it doesn't compare to having God love you. Its the same kind of thing as human love only more. There is nothing you can do to make him love you less, nothing you can do to make him love you more. To have God let you know he loves you is something to behold. And it goes on forever. He will never fall out of love with you. Never go off with someone else.These are but some of what it is to have relationship with him. It starts the day you are made spiritually alive and continues on to the time of your physical death. You don't have to worry to much about intellectual difficulties. God is interested in what you heart has to say about him. If your heart is responding to his call on you then he will draw you to himself. Intellectually, I was kicking and spitting all the way up to the moment I believed. My heart was saying different than my intellect.The link below brings you to a thread about the book of Romans where the gospel and the need for it is explained in the most complete way in the Bible. You are not permitted to post in that thread (it is for myself and Larni only). But it might help clarify some things (amongst which: you are in fact "bad" (unrighteous) in Gods eyes and Gods aim is to make you "good" (righteous). It is his job to do so - for you cannot do so no matter how hard you try) How the gospel worksGod bless... Edited by iano, : No reason given.

In your own time PTB

To be honest I've never played it. But if you have a question I'll endeavor to answer. There is biblical argument to back up the notions I summarized in my post. The trouble is that these things are foundational issues - and large ones at that. It is a relatively easy affair to pluck a couple of verses from the Bible that tells us that men are by nature, spiritually dead. But someone else could pluck a couple of verses out that would indicate something else. In order to bolster the intellectual/literary case one would need to engage on a deeper study. Books are a better way to do that than a web forum. If you wanted to I could find some links that explain what I would explain in answer to core questions such as the ones you seem to have. There is no point in re-inventing the wheel - especially if someone can explain it better than I can. I'm not sure what the topic is to be honest. I can tell a person what its like to know God. And I can point to things in the Bible that would support that what I experience is what the Bible says a person will experience. I can say that I experienced a peace about things - that everything was going to be okay. And can point to the Bible saying that a person will experience a peace beyond all understanding.Personally, I don't think reading the Bible is critical to coming to know Jesus in the first instance. If you are drawn to do so then by all means do so (or resist that drawing if finding yourself drawn: "some other time perhaps - I really must do that shopping"). But you may be drawn in other ways (and resist that drawing). Having said that, you can get to know something more of his character by reading about him. But knowing about him is not the same thing as knowing himSomeone could read a book about my mother and find out all about her. But the way to know her really is not by reading a book about her. But many have come to know him by their reading of the Bible. Martin Luther was converted on reading line in Romans. How and when and by what means that happens is less important than it happening in the first place.one last point: Are you accepting (for the sake of discussion) that the Bible is the word of God. Or do you mean only things that directly come from Gods mouth (as quoted in the Bible) are "from God" and "not man"?) Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Thats an argument from ignorance (with all due respect) as was Jars. See the bets being hedged? "Pretty much"/"unlikely that". These are unquantified units although Jar wouldn't make the mistake of saying that a person cannot know Jesus - EvC veteran that he is. The Bible a book? At 985 posts and you've grasped so little. You heard it said of the Bible that it is the word of God haven't you. Irrespective of whether you believe this or not it should lead you to some conclusions. God "spoke" the world into existance didn't he. Do you suppose there would be a little more to his word than the word of a book? Irrespective of whether you believe it or not, I mean?

I suppose I can only speak from experience. I knew of God before I had done much with the Bible except perhaps consider its thin pages ideal joint rolling material. The Bible confirmed the experience in a way which made me look on it as the word of God.I had a peace about things which I couldn't describe or understand. The problems hadn't gone away but it didn't seem to matter - it was all going to be okay. Then I came across "a peace which surpasses all understanding".It made me take notice of what else it had to say. That's why I said not essential for coming to know. But it could happen the other way around like it happened to Luther. You read and then you suddenly get it.

You call that objection?Your a pussy compared to me Straggler. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Who said anything about debate? That might be the goal of this site. It surely isn't mine.

My goal? Evangelism/Apologetics (look it up). If I have to debate while doing so then so be it.Can I prove the Bible is the word of God or that Jesus/Paul/Peter/Jeremiah etc ever lived? No. No one ever will.But thats not the point. The point is not to prove. For to prove would be me proving God. And no-one can prove God.People can take it or leave it. That's up to them. My job is simply to present truth as best I can.

Curoiously, my advice is the same My advice here would be to ask whether "rational" is the only way to live a life. You sound like a rational addict.I've known a lot of things in my life that weren't rational yet I sat quite happily beside them. Riding a motorcycle whilst stoned and drunk is not rational. Yet I did it. And it taught me things that rational couldn'tEdited by iano, : spelling

"Volunteers required for point duty" Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

How amazingly far you can lean a motorcycle over without slinging it down the road, for one. And how much further than amazingly far you should not go. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Although the idea of the Trinity can't really be understood we are told what some of the characteristics of that relationship are. And one of those characteristics is the existance of a father/son relationship. Both the fathers and the sons desire is that we would have the same kind of relationship that Jesus has with the father. Although Jesus is God his position was that of a son - a little like you and your kids are all human (of equal importance) yet their relationship with you is father/child.Jesus is described as the "first born amongst many brothers". We are to become brothers/sisters of him in the sense that we are to become "children of God". "Adopted children" of God in fact - Jesus being the Fathers 'natural' offspring.So to understand a little more of what it is to have relationship with God we should look at our own relationships with children. This from the perspective either of not having that relationship with God yet or having that relationship with him but being in a position of having forgotten how the relationship is meant to be.It would be helpful to all to look at our children in their relation to us to help us cast our own minds back to the relationship we had with our parents when we were very young. I understand that for many those relationships were troubled and unhappy. In that case, all a person could do is look at some idealised father/son relationships for direction: the better relationships our friends had with their parents perhaps, or ones that we have seen in the movies and possibly envied.Some of classic characterisitics of such good parent/child relationships would be;- the child hero worships their parent. Their parent (up to an age at least) is the centre of their universe. The parent can do everything in the childs eyes. They are God in fact.- the child recognises that he is totally dependant on his parent for anything that it has. All good things stem from the parent: the child not having the means to support itself.- the parent disciplines the child for its own good. The child of loving parents can take the discipline and know that the parent still loves it.- the child wants to please its parent. Its parent expressing pleasure in it is the chief delight of the child.- the parent is the one who picks the child up when it is hurt, who tends to wounds and assures that all is okay. The parent is the one who "wipes every tear from your eye".- the parent is the one whose expression of concern and love and all the rest, comfirms to the child that he/she is worthwhile. This is a very special category of total dependance. The child has no sense of intrinsic worth bar that which comes to it from the parent.- the parent is the one who steps in to protect (with its own life if necessary) the child against danger. This fierce protectiveness also confirms worth in the child. It also makes the child feel safe and protected.- the parent is in a better position to know what is good for the child and what is not good. The child will have its own ideas: perhaps it wants to stuff its face with sweets because to its mind sweets are good. The parent will seek to protect the child from itself.- the parent is the one who introduces excitement and pleasure and fun and games into the childs life. The parent spots characteristics individual to the child and seeks to stimulate these interests. They don't force the children to do things that they patently have no interest or ability in, but instead they seek to nurture and develop the things that are of interest and within the ability of the child. The good parent sets reasonable, thought out challenges and is the one the child looks to for approval when those challenges are met or is the one who picks the child up and dusts it off with encouragement and love when the challenge isn't met.- the relationship between parents and children are the most loving relationships that can potentially exist. Not even love for a spouse can trump the love a person has for their own children. Their own flesh and blood.Now children are not likely to be in a position to know these things - they are kids after all. But they can pick up the sense of these things even as children. They are wired for it. We, as adults are in a fortunate position. As adults we are well able to understand all these things about parent/child relationships. We are ideally equipped to become children of God for we know what our position should be - we have been children and parents ourselves. 'All we need to do' is project our own experiences of being both children and adults onto God/us in order to understand the relationship as it is meant to be. And our place that relationship.Us as children. God, as Father, displaying perfect parenting characteristics. If a person has enjoyed their experience as a child then they can know something of what it is like to have a relationship with God. Its being a beloved child again. What could be better! And if a person has not had an enjoyable childhood then just wait: your in for a pleasurable surprise! All that has to happen is for you to be adopted into his family if you haven't yet been.

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Unless you change and become like little children you will never enter the Kingdom of God.(Matthew 18:3)

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Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

People who will go to hell are those who have never been adopted as children of God. First be adopted then have God as you father. That's the natural sequence that occurs in adoption and the one given by the parent/child picture in the Bible. He doesn't withhold evidence. He gives evidence sufficient. Sufficient in the sense that he deems it sufficient. And if he deems it sufficient then it is. If he deems that fair then it is. What hoops we would like God to jump through are irrelevant. Indeed we forget that God owes us nothing at all. Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Paul, who was in a slightly better postion to comment seems to disagree with you.

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Romans 11

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33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

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34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

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35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

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36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

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A child can, through experience, learn to trust and respect and obey their parents or they may be an unruly, disobedient child. But a child they remain. There is no picture in the Bible of growing up so as to be independant of the parent as happens in real life. Always little children. Edited by iano, : No reason given.

I'm not surprised you say that given your position as a person at emnity with God. Children of God have a different perspective. All they see is his love poured out on them.You may not see yourself as at emnity with God - given you do not believe he exists. That doesn't matter very much. What matters is how he considers you. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning