Knowing God

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All of your parent/child analogies are great. Following this analogy thru however, what parent would actively condemn their children to enternal suffering for not believing something? All the while withholding evidence of that something.

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Don't confuse religion and dogma with knowing God.Just as a child matures into an adult and then understands the actions of their parents, we mature spiritually to understand and "know" God and to know the difference between "knowing" God and practicing religion.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Not the first time Paul and I disagree. lolBut I don't feel Paul was writing to spiritually mature audience. He was dealing with people new in Christ.

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A child can, through experience, learn to trust and respect and obey their parents or they may be an unruly, disobedient child. But a child they remain. There is no picture in the Bible of growing up so as to be independant of the parent as happens in real life. Always little children.

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I didn't say the spiritually mature are independent of God, but I also don't feel that the books of the Bible are written to the spiritually mature.Being spiritually mature doesn't mean we know the mind of God or presume to be God's counsellor, just as being an adult doesn't mean I know my parents' minds or presume to be their counsellor. But I can reach a level of maturity to understand their parental actions.I do feel it is possible to reach a level of spiritual maturity to understand God and our place in knowing God.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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With all due respect, so what?

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Meaning, my spiritual journey is not going to be exactly like anyone elses at any one given time. We are all at different positions along the path.Paul may have be confounded by God at the time he wrote the statement, it doesn't mean he stayed that way. Have I been confounded by God at some point along the path, yes.But right now, no, I'm not disconcerted, confused or bewildered by God.
No I am not a child in my comprehension of him and his ways, when starting my journey, yes.The originator is starting his spiritual journey by asking about Jesus and is open, as a child, to answers. If he continues he will go through various emotions and degrees of confusion and comprehension, but if or when he comes to know Jesus or God his experience will not necessarily be exactly the same as your experience, my experience, or anyone elses or in the same timeframe.There aren't numbered instructions for truly knowing God that everyone can follow with the same exact results.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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What I was pointing out was the nature of the relationship no matter how deep one goes. Always that of a parent/child with the characteristics I pointed out a few posts back. Never adult to adult as you get with humans when the child grows up.

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I disagree.Examples from your analogy in Message 47As an adult we realize that our parents can't do everything. The spiritually mature realize God won't do everything. They understand what God will and won't do for them. As an adult we realize that we now are responsible for our decisions, actions, and physical needs, but we can still get advice from our parents. The spiritually mature also realize they are responsible for their thoughts, actions, and decisions; but they can still get guidance from God. Just as an adult uses what he has learned as a child, the spiritually mature use what they have learned from God on their journey. If our parents did their job right we shouldn't need discipline as an adult. A simple warning usually suffices if they see us going down the wrong path. The spiritually mature person also shouldn't need discipline anymore. They perceive God's warnings and heed them. N/A As adults we no longer expect our parents to "make everything alright", but we do solicit advice on how to "fix" the problem. The spiritually mature don't expect God to "make everything alright", but solicit advice to "fix" the problem. I don't agree with this one even as a parent/child relationship. N/A As adults we then know what is good for us and solicit advice when unsure. The spiritually mature learn what is good for them and solicit advice from God when unsure. N/A But it can once they are adults and in both directions. As adults we aren't supposed to cling to our parents. That doesn't mean we desert them. The spiritually mature are not clingy, needy children.IMO, God wants us to grow up so we aren't so high maintenance. But beginning the journey is like being a child, we have to be open to learning, studying, changing, etc.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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That God won't doesn't mean we are anything but children.

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Even though my daughter has a child of her own she is still my child. Mentally and physically she is an adult.I exaplained that the spiritually mature person understands what God will and won't do for them. An adolescent doesn't always understand why a parent won't or can't do something. No human is truly independent.

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Whereas with God our knowledge is always a tiny fraction of what he knows. There is no situation we can encounter where he does not know which way we should go. We can never be free of needing his advice.

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I didn't say we could be free of needing God's advice. I didn't say that the spiritually mature know all that God knows. I said that the spiritually mature use what they have learned from God on their journey and they ask for guidance when necessary. He's a spotter as opposed to training wheels.

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Some children heed the discipline and others don't. I don't see escaping from under parenthood simply because parental discipline is heeded by a child.

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Rather obsessed with escaping and indepence aren't you. Yes some children heed discipline and others don't. As adults those who are used to discipline are easier to steer back on the path before they screw up. They don't need to wait for consequences to see the error of their ways. Adults who did not respond to discipline as a child are the ones who still break the law. It has nothing to do with escaping parenthood. The spiritually mature person doesn't need serious discipline. They will heed a simple warning from God so God doesn't need to administer disciplinary action.

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What happens if the adult can't fix the problem?

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I said the spiritually mature don't expect God to "make everything alright", but solicit advice to "fix" the problem. I guess I needed to say solict advice from God. I assumed that was understood.

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think the effects of parenting where there is rejection, lack of affirmation, lack of love, criticism etc are well documented. Low self esteem and trouble follow.

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Yes there are and there are cases where a child can have plenty of love, affirmation, all the right things and still have low self esteem and vice versa.A spiritually mature person is going to understand their own selfworth and not look to others for constant edification. I say that because, IMO, if a person always needs outside confirmation of their worth, they have the potential to be easily swayed by something that makes them feel good.

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So do mature children. Adulthood is typified by independance and striking out in own direction apart from direct guidance of parents. Can you give me an example of where this independance from God and sense of setting own direction independant from God is manifest in the relationship?

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Unfortunately your parent/child analogy can only go so far. Adult children leave their parents domain or financial support and begin to provide for our own physical needs. Eventually they find a mate and so forth. Some adult children follow the same path as their parents and live very close together, so it isn't necessarily about severing all ties with ones parents.The spritually mature person is more like the adult child who follows in his father's footsteps.

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Who else are you going to turn to when you sin. Who offers forgiveness? Who can bath you? Who can wipe the tears from your eyes?

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We're talking about knowing God and the relationship. Forgiveness works the same way no matter what maturity level one is at.

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There is no Biblical sense that we relate with God as adult-to-adult.

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It is more Parent/Adult Child relationship.The examples you gave are more like a young child that depends completely on his parents for everything, which is where the journey will begin; but it can grow into a relationship like a parent to adult child. There is a big difference between those two relationships.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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They never will relate to God in anything like the way your adult daughter relates to you. As an equal - not in child-like need of your input for their journey.

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I disagree. It is not the same sense of dependence as a nonadult child.

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Take away Gods input and you falter. Who else is going to advise and guide your development if not him?

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God is just a parent who never dies. So we always have access to his input. He just doesn't have to tell us what to do every day as our parents did when we were not adults.

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Is there any picture you can think of at all which indicates anything but being led as a child the whole way down the path?

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IMO, the NT was written for those lost or new to the faith. It wasn't written to the spiritually mature; so no I can't show you with the NT. But I also don't see that the NT indicates being led as a nonadult child down the whole path to knowing God.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Sometimes I don't express my position well when conversing with you because I try to stay within the confines of how you read the Bible. I probably shouldn't do that.Essentially, I disagree with the dependency scenerios you presented in Message 47. The references in the Bible to "being as a little child" (Mark 10:15) deal with trust, not dependency experienced by a little child. That's why I see the relationship with God as a parent to adult child.Being born again, doesn't refer to being like a dependent infant.In Rabbinic Judaism there are six ways to be born again.

Jesus used the term in a spiritual sense. Spiritual rebirth, not becoming dependent. This would be the throwing off of the old self.Even Paul talked of doing away with childish things. (1 Cor 13:11)In 2 Peter 1:5-9, the author speaks of adding to ones faith: goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love. Once we cast off the old self we have to build the new self. This also doesn't speak of childlike dependency. It's speaking of spiritual fruit. A specific need that Jesus filled.Looks like the NT supports my position more than I thought.To start on the path to a new self, we trust Jesus and his teachings as the child in Mark 10:15. We are born again (spiritual rebirth) and start to build our new self. As we cast off old ways and learn and grow spiritually, we become more in tune with God and in this way we come to "know" God.That's why I feel that the relationship with God is a parent to adult child relationship, not one of little child dependency.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

My response is related to the examples given in Message 47.

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As if we are to be reduced to children in every possible way.

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Unfortunately when discussing reliance on God these types of analogies give that impression. Which is why many balk at starting the journey.

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But I think the idea is merely that there is absolutely no way we can do anything without God to further our spiritual lives, it all has to come from Him. ... Your quote about fruit is apropos. All fruit comes from abiding in Him, which is about drawing the power from Him, since we have none in ourselves.

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Spiritual fruit. We can't do anything spiritually, not anything in general. In a mixed group that needs to be made clear.

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The process of growing up spiritually doesn't imply independence at any point, but better ability to draw on God and better ability to reject our own natural fleshly attempts to do-it-yourself.

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I haven't advocated that it brings independence from God and I agree that as we mature spiritually our ability to draw on God improves.

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There is no loss of competence implied, but a steady gaining of competence in the things of the spirit, all through connectedness to the Source who supplies it.

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Exactly. The NT authors don't imply a loss of competence, but the examples in Message 47 do.That's why I feel that the spiritual relationship with God is more of a Parent to Adult Child relationship. The Adult Child takes care of their own physical needs, but turns to the parent for advice and guidance in dealing with hurdles in life as they continue to mature.The scriptures I shared in Message 78 that speak of "being like a child" are referring to trust and not the childlike dependency shown in the examples in Message 47.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

You can get to know Jesus the same way you get to know any person who is no longer physically alive. You read what was written about him. The Book of Mark in the Bible is the first bio written about Jesus and was written over 30 years after his death. Reading a book on the history of Christianity and/or the history of the Jews will help you understand what was going on in the world during the first century when Jesus was alive and when Christianity developed.

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Why has Jesus allowed you to have a relationship with him and not me? If Jesus has accepted me and entered into a relationship with me I have not seen it. I have not felt it. I have not heard it. I have no evidence it exists. Am I doing something wrong? I do not think I am bad.

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Just as it is difficult to have a relationship with a person who doesn't really want to have a relationship with you, it will be difficult for you to have the relationship Christians have with Jesus unless you want to go through the Christian teachings associated with understanding and learning about Jesus. You have to truly want the relationship. It is part of the religion. You have to allow yourself to have the relationship, not Jesus.

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My daughter is 8 - she does not know Jesus. Jesus has never reached out to her - why not? My son is 12; he does not live with me. His mother took him 1,500 miles away from me. She is religious. My son he knows Jesus. Why does Jesus talk to my son not my daughter?

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Your son knows Jesus because his mother has taught him the Christian tenets or has taken him to Church for religious training. You haven't done that with your daughter. Even though you can know God through other religions, knowing Jesus is part of the Christian religion.

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What I really want to know is how do you know you know Jesus? How do you form a relationship for something that is 'not there'(I use that loosely). How do you know Jesus loves you - what does this feel like?

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If you're not a Christian or haven't been through Christian training, then you won't know Jesus as the Christians describe. Although many Christians would argue with me, you aren't forming a relationship with something that isn't there. IMO, you're forming a relationship with yourself.

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How do we know this is real - this feeling, emotion; this “THING” that makes us (you) know you know Jesus.

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How do you know you're in love? It's all about inner peace.Bottom line: You can read about Jesus and understand his teachings, but you can't feel the emotional impact of the religion if you don't practice the religion. Knowing Jesus as the Christians describe it is part of that emotional impact.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz