Did Jesus lie ?

If we pursue this it may be flagged as OFF TOPIC. But I didn’t agree with the premise that Jesus didn’t have to do a considerable amount of educating His contemporary Jews about Himself as the Christ. Trying to constrict Jesus to the Jewish concept of this and that is ridiculous.Had He conformed in every way to the Jewish concept He would not have been opposed and crucified. Noted. But this also might take us off topic. If I relpy I don’t want to be flagged as having gone off topic. Let’s try it. I can agree with this part. But in the fulfillment of prophecy the fulfillment usually surpasses what was originally predicted. The fulfullment is always richer than the original uttered prophecy.And Christ as the Firstborn Son of God is much richer in meaning than what was known of the divine attitude towards David. I will prove that shortly. And I will hope that it will be deemed somewhat related to the topic. I did not understand your comparison of Exodus 7:1 with 1 Samuel 4:8. At the risk of being off topic. I don’t agree with all of this discussion above. In what sense is Jesus Christ the Firstborn Son of God in the New Testament? There are some additional aspects which you ignore completely.1.) Christ is discribed as ”the Firstborn of all creation” (Col:1:15). But that is not the major aspect of His being Firstborn in Hebrews 1:6.
2.) Christ is ”Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that He Himself might have the firstplace in all things” (Col. 1:18)Verse 15 shows that in the old creation Christ has preeminence as the Firstborn of all creation. Then verse 18 shows that in the new creation He also has preeminence as the Firstborn in resurrection. The new creation is the creation that comes out of resurrection, including the new covenant church.Christ is the first man to enter into the glorious state of the resurrection. He did not simply “come back” from the dead. His resurrection was a BIRTH. It was the birth of the Firstborn Son in resurrection, in the new creation of God which is His Body and His church.Many people were raised from the dead in the Bible before Jesus was resurrected. But Jesus was resurrected in a body of glory for God’s new creation. He was not raised as Lazarus only to die again in the old creation.1.) Peter indicates that God begot Christ at His resurrection:”That God has fulfilled this promise to us their children in raising up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ”You are My Son; today I have begotten You.’ And as to His having raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to corruption, He spoke in this way: ”I will give you the holy things of David, the faithful things.” (Acts 13:33,34)The day designated as ”This day” (Today) is the day of Christ’s resurrection. Peter certainly had this understanding to use the passage to relate to Christ being raised from the dead.
2.) Christ Himself spoke of His resurrection in terms of a birth of a man-child into the world.”Truly, truly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy.

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A woman, when she gives birth, has sorrow because her hour has come; but when she brings forth the little child, she no longer remembers the affliction because of the joy that a man has been born into the world” (John 16:20,21)The bringing forth here is the begetting of Christ in resurrection, the birth of the glorified Man, to see corruption no more. He is born a victorious man forevermore beyond the reach of death. ”Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades” (Rev.1:17,18)Jesus teaches that His resurrection is not as Lazarus or the widow’s son or many others who were resurrected only to die again. His resurrection is the birth of a new man in the world totally victorious over death in glorfication. He was begotten of the Father in resurrection.3.) Paul teaches that Christ was designated the Son of God in power at the resurrection:”Concerning His Son, who came out of the seed of David according to the flesh, Who was designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness out of the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord” (Rom. 1:3,4)We should be familiar that the divine decree was that this Jesus was God’s Son at His incarnation (Luke 1:35) and at His baptism (Matt. 3:17). But in Romans chapter one Paul does not refer to these announcements. He speaks of Christ’s designation as the Son of God at His resurrection. This is not the designation of the only begotten Son of God. This is the designation of the Firstborn Son of God in resurrection. His resurrection was a birth. On that day God had begotten Him (See Acts 13:33)3.) The Apostle Paul also teaches that conformation to Christ’s image in resurrection and glorification brings the believers to be the many sons following the Firstborn Son:”Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predistinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified” (Rom. 8:29,30)These glorified sons are the many sons to accompany Christ when the Firstborn comes again into the inhabited earth in Hebrews chapter one. He is leading many sons into glory (Hebrews 2:10)While your verses on David are helpful I think you fail to see that the fulfillment of prophecy is richer in meaning than the utterances of the prediction. The fulfillment includes these words and much more. God overflows in His faithfulness.You will notice that Christ is the Firstborn Son in the new creation - the church which is His Body - the entity of all those who possess the resurrection life of Christ (Col. 1:18) Parellel with this Christ calls Himself ”the Beginning of the creation of God” in Revelation chapter 3:”These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the beginning of the creation of God” (Rev. 3:14)This should indicate the new creation the church. The new creation is man mingled with God and God imparted into man.Finally, Christ resurrection is not only His birth as the Firstborn but also the birth of all the saved. We the believers are said to have been regenerated through the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. So His resurrection is the beleiver’s birth in regeneration also:”Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)This is the Firstborn Son in resurrection Who comes again in His second coming into the inhabited earth. And He comes leading many following sons into the glorious expression of the Divine Being in man (Hebrews 2:10, Rom. 8:28,29). Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

I explained it already in the writer of Hebrews meaning in "But now we do not yet see all things subjected to Him. But we see Jesus ..." (Heb. 2:8)In short the man in Psalm 8 has not fulfilled the mandate. But Jesus in contrast has come to be what God intended by mankind.That is why He is the Savior. Did you notice that Adam blew it? Did you notice that Christ is called the Second Man and the last Adam?Man "from the foundation of the world" was to enjoy God's kingdom on the earth (Matthew 25:34 -

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Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." From the foundation of the world God intended to establish His kingdom with man as His deputy authority. Adam relinquished that mandate and came under the authority of darkness. Christ recovers God's intention for His kingdom on the earth.The created man was placed before the tree of life to receive the life of God. He was excluded because of his sin and partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.In this exclusion Paul says man was "alienated from the life of God" (EPh. 4:18). Christ in Acts as the Holy Spirit imparts this divine life into the new man the church. The Author of life they had killed. But God raised Him (Acts 3:15)The apostles were told to go into the temple and "speak all the words of this life." That is this divine ZOE life imparted resurrection of which is Jesus Himself. In opening the doors to the kingdom of the heavens man came into the church and was no longer alienated from the life of God.I will have to continue latter. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

The chapter does indeed stress that Jesus is like us. I agree with this. But we are like Him not merely in the sense that He was a created man and we are created men. The audience is like Him and He like them in that the audience are sanctified believers in Christ (not the unbelievers) and are of the same divine Source of divine life:”For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, I will declare Your name to My brothers; in the midst of the church I will sing hymns of praise toYou.” (Heb 2:11,12)The created people are NOT in the process of being sanctified by Christ UNLESS they have become believers in Jesus Christ. It is the saints (the believers) who are being sanctified by the Sanctifier. It is not all created people who are in the process of sanctification merely because they are human. Can you see this?He declares the name of His Father in the church. He does not declare the name of God merely or the Creator. He declares the name of His Father. We have to believe in Christ, be born of God to claim His Father as our Father also. Such who are born of the one Father are the church. Can you see this?”But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name . ” (John 1:12)”Paul, a called apostle of Christ Jesus . . to the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, the called saints, with all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, who is theirs and ours . ” (1 Cor. 1:2)Hebrews two does not stop at saying the audience is like Him as created humans. It teaches that the audience is like Him in that His divine Father is theirs also in the process of His sanctification in the called out assembly - the church.But the audience are not altogether the same as He. He is a Leader Who cut the way for the audience. They audience was under the dominion of death and need to be released from its power:”He Himself . might release those who because of fear of death through all their life were held in slavery” (2:14a,15)The man God created to have dominion fell in Adam. And he came under the bondage and slavery of death. Whereas the first man allowed death to enter into creation, Jesus in Hebrews two has destroyed him who has the authority of death, the devil -”Since therefore the children have shared in blood and flesh, He also Himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death HE might destroy him who has the might of death, that is the devil” (2:14). In this aspect of Him destroying the one who has the might of death, He is unique and truly has all things under His feet. The version that I am quoting does capitalize ”Him” in verse 8. And I do admit that that makes the passage a little difficult to decipher.However the crowning of Christ with glory and honor should refer to His resurrection. He was crowned by man with a crown of thorns before. Thorns were a symbol of the curse of God upon the earth. Christ entered into His glory mentioned in this chapter in His resurrection. He Himself said after His resurrection:”Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory” (Luke 24:26)The glory spoken of as a crown in Hebrews is not the glory of His being a created man. It is the glory of Him having suffered and being a man in resurrection. As Peter also teaches:” . the sufferings of Christ and the glories after these .” (1 Peter 1:11)This is the glory which Hebrews says is the crown upon Jesus. And this is why on the Mt. of Transfiguration He commanded the witnesses to say nothing of the glory they beheld in Him until AFTER He was to be raised from the dead:”And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is raised from the dead” (Matt. 17:9)They saw a preview of this glory. But He prefered that the world would know of this glory after He should rightly pass through His redemptive death and overcoming resurrection. The glories were to follow the sufferings. What the disciples saw was a temporary seeping through of the divine glory concealed within the shell of His humanity. In His resurrection the glories are eternal and permenant. That is what I am saying. And that is why I said the capitalization of ”Him” in the RcV may make this difficult to grasp without careful study. But the translators are counting Adam as a type of Christ I think.I agree with you that 14 and 15 stress that Christ has become God incarnated as a created man with flesh and blood. I agree with you that in this regard He is qualified to be a faithful High Priest. But I would have to go to another topic to deal with His sanctification process making the believers like Him.At this point I will only say that the High Priest is imparting the living law of God into man in the new and better covenant:”For this is the covenant which I will covenant with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will impart My laws into their mind, and on their hearts I will inscribe them; and I will be God to them, and they will be a people to Me.” (Hebrews 8:10)The High Priest in Hebrews is therefore not just sympathizing with the created man. He is imparting the divine life of God with its spontaneous law of life into His redeemed people constituting them God’s people according to divine life and divine nature - i.e. ”leading many sons into glory”.He became like us in humanity that He might make us like Him in divinity. Therefore those under His priestly ministry have ”tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit . ” (Heb. 6:4)The divine nature which He has must be wrought into His people. He must impart the divine into them. He became man so that we might become sons of God. He did not come to those created and already sons of God. Rather He came to those who were defeated by death and needed a release from its power to receive the eternal life and divine nature.He is a High Priest according to the power of an indestructible life (Heb. 7:16) which He is ministering into the sons of God as the inner law of life of the new covenant. In that they need release from death and sin they have failed. Sin and death are underneath the feet of Christ. He is the leading One to reign. The saved are the following ones to reign via His great salvation. His exaltation and crowning with glory and honor follows His suffering and death. In eternity Christ was the Creator, unlimited and omnipresent. When He incarnated as a man in time, He was limited so that one day He could go to the cross and deal with the universal problem - death. In order to suffer death and destroy death and nullify death, Christ had to become a man and lose His freedom temporarily, for thirty three and one half years. During this period He was inferior to the angels, in the sense of His assumed limitation. However, three days after His death He resurrected out of that inferiority and is now much superior to the angels.From Hebrews 1:4 through 2:18 the writer is teaching the Hebrews that Christ is superior to the angels - ”For to which of the angels has He ever said, You are My Son; this day have I begotten You?” (1:5)Many things are said in this section to show that the angels are inferior to the resurrected Son. When you read ”But we see Jesus,who was made a little inferior to the angels because of the suffering of death , crowned with glory and honor . ” you should understand that following death was His resurrection in which He is glorified and honored.He died AND was resurrected so that He might taste death on behalf of everything. It is in His resurrection that ”on behalf of everything” becomes effective for man and the universe. He is a High Priest in resurrection with the power of an indestructible life. I think this is how we should think of His crowing with glory and honor in the Hebrews passage. As Peter wrote ”God, who raised Him (Christ) from the dead and gave Him glory” (1 Peter 1:21) The most direct interpretation of the Transfiguration is given by one of the witnesses, Peter. And Peter says that they were ”eyewitness to that One’s majesty.” Based upon that eyewitness experience Peter and the apostles make known to us ”the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”.How can you not think of that eyewitness experience then as a preview of Christ’s power and coming?Furthermore Peter says that no lie was found in the mouth of Jesus. So you are either going to put your trust in Legend and Brian that Jesus had a lie in His mouth or trust the Apostle Peter that no lie was found there.My decision is to trust Peter and the New Testament over Brian and Legend. You make your decision as to who you plan to trust.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Docterbill, Do you think the praise of Mary in Luke 1 should superceed all of the teachings of Christ concerning His disciples loving their enemies and praying for their enemies?Do you think the New Testament could eliminate the epistles of Paul and simply end with the praises of Mary in Luke chapter one?Suppose God saves you from your enemies but you still live in fornication and stealing. Are you saved in New Testament terms?Suppose God saves you from those who hate you and from your enemies but you are an atheist or a slave of mammon? Is that your real salvation? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It is not conceivable that the final manifestation of the kingdom of God should not include the glorification of the disciples. It is impossible that the climax of Christ's coming should prematurely leave out the matured and glorified disciples. Where then is the kingdom?Christ "leading many sons into glory" (Heb.2:10) is the last step of God's great salvation. His arriving alone in glory without the disciples cannot be the climax of the coming of Christ's kingdom. Therefore what the discples witness on the Mt. of Transfiguration had to have been a preview.Romans 8 tell us that God's work of grace upon His redeemed people began with His foreknowing, passed through His predestination, calling, and justification and the climax and end is with His glorifying them. Then they are fully "conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers" I think for Christ to say that some would not taste death until they saw the climax of His coming and His kingdom surely would imply that His closest diciples would enter into that glorfied state of conformation with Him. He has absolutely no ambition or desire to arrive at that majesty ALONE. If so then WHERE is the kingdom?In fact the whole creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God. That revelation is the glorification and the manifestation of the sons of God. Creation does not await the revelation of only one Son of God but of "sons of God". Creation hopes that it too will "enter into the freedom of the glory of the children of God". Christ knew that the climax of His coming kingdom must include at least a representative group of glorified overcoming ones of the children of God and the freeing of creation into their glory. Natural calamities spoken of in Luke - the roaring of the sea, the earthquakes, etc should indicate the effect of His consummated kingdom upon the natural world.Did Jesus expect all these things to occur in the lifetime of those standing around Him? I don't think so. He says that the disciples will be hated of all nations for His name's sake first. They were no where near having begun their testimony among all nations on the earth."But before all these things they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for the sake of My name. And it will turn out to you for a testimony" (Luke 21:12,13)"Before all these things" refers to the earthquakes, great signs in heaven, famines, national wars, kingdom wars, revolutions, false Christs, and apostasy spoken of in verses 8 through 11. If Jesus thought that these would all develop within the life spans of the few in His audience I think we should see some explanation as to why it did not in the New Testament before the last of the original disciples expired.The closest thing we see to that is Peter telling us that with the Lord a thousand years is as one day and one day as a thousand years. But there is not the slightest hint of disappointment or dejection on Peter's part.Furtheremore it is hard to say that Jesus either lied or was mistaken when He plainly told the disciples that only the Father knew of the time of His second coming: The weight of the evidence I think points to Christ telling the audience that some would witness a preview of His power and coming in His kingdom in a few days. That He knew whereas He was limited by His Father from knowing the precise day and hour of the final climax of His kingdom's arrival.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

When you talk about what the Bible actually says you are talking in such restricted terms as only wanting to include what supports your contention. I showed you many verses of what the Bible actually says which you intend to ignore completely.The Bible actually says that Jesus did not know the day or the hour of His coming, neither the angels knew, but only the Father (Luke 24:36). Why are you not concerned with what it actually says there in the synopotic Luke? Instead you ignore it and put forth the idea that He knew that the time of His second coming would fall within the lifetime of some in His audience. I don’t think so. I think of the many things Jesus said we have a selection of certainly a minority of those things said. With those portions of His teaching and the aid of the other speakers in the New Testament we try to put the puzzle together to ascertain as much as God will permit His meaning.Concerning what the Bible actually says, it actually says that no guile was found in the mouth of Jesus (1 Peter 2:22). How come I see no zealous concern for what the Bible actually says from you in this passage?Where is Peter’s clarification that Jesus misled them? Where is there a hint that the disciples are disheartened because He has not returned yet? You talking about me or yourself?I haven’t gone to one website in this entire discussion. I have opened my Bible. And where I meet we practice the priesthood of all believers. We do not practice a clerical system.As far as the second coming being soon, I think that when He comes most people will feel that it is too soon rather than too late, particularly the ones who accuse the Son of God of being a liar.As far as God’s view of soon we have Peter’s clarification:”But do not let this one thing escape you, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day. The Lord does not delay regarding the promise, as some count delay, but is long-suffering toward you, not intending that any perish but that all advance to repentance” (2 Peter 3:8,9)Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

If Jesus was wrong (lying or not) where is the discussion by the apostles in Acts, or in the epistles, or in Revelation, or anywhere correcting for, apologizing for, or otherwise making up for the misspeaking?Would you present your evidence that any of the early disciples noticed the error that you think you notice?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

He's a little confused that we are not exact clones of one another and put forward different rationals questioning his premise.I for one have said nothing yet about the word generation. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I think you simply have no adaquate apprehension of the nature of Christ's kingdom.Peter says they did not follow cleverly devised myths. You say they did follow them.Peter says that their witness to the majesty of the Lord Jesus gives them the ground to forewarn the others of the power and coming of Christ.Notice what else Peter writes: (the authenticity of Peter's epistels is probably off topic)"Knowing this, that in the last days mockers will come with mocking, going according to their own lusts and saying, Where is the promise of His coming?" (2 Pet. 3:3,4)How do I know that you Legend are not among the mockers predicted to come in the last days? You look at the demise of the early disciples and ask "Where was the promise of His coming? He lied. Or He made a mistake."Maybe you are one of the "mockers" that Peter warned the Christian church about. Perhaps your superficial comprehension of Christ's kingdom is the cause of your mocking.

nevermind.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Rule #10 of the Forum - Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics. We were talking about whether Christ lied or not. In your frustration to establish your argument you seemed to have lashed out and expanded your critque to matters of the humanity of Jesus, which was not in question. And your tone in doing so seems purposely tailored to be vile and offensive.I think our exchange is concluded at this juncture.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.