Did Jesus lie ?

The interesting thing to me is that if Jesus did lie Matthew didn't exclude it from the gospel to save the Christian church from embarressment. There's no reason to believe that Matthew couldn't catch the mistake. The fact that Matthew included it in his gospel argues for the authenticity of it having actually been said by Jesus.False propoganda would exclude those things which disprove its main purpose of publication. The candidness of including potentially embaressing material argues for the authenticity of the sayings of Christ in Matthew's gospel.Do we see in the New Testament Peter, John, James, Paul downhearted and dejected that their Lord has not returned in their life times? I see no indication of depression or disillusionment. They all seem quite sober and resonsponsible to pass on to there audience the concepts they will need for the long haul just in case Jesus does not return right away.Peter speaks of his soon coming departure. So does Paul. There is no hint of dejected disappointment that Christ has not touched down on the earth again. They may have wanted Him to. Thier attitude that they don't KNOW when He will and that the disciples need to be equiped for a possible longer wait is soberminded and responsible.Now what did Jesus actually say? Did He say some were standing there who would not taste death until they see Him come again? No He did not. He said that some standing there would not taste death until they saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.What did they see? They saw something that was concealed and hidden within Jesus become manifested. The splendour of His hidden divine glory seeped out from the concealment of His flesh and He was transfigured before their eyes. The divine glory hidden within the shell of His humanity temporarily shone through and the disciples standing there got a glimps.He commanded them not to tell anyone about the vision until He be raised from the dead.This argues that the full manifestation of the kingdom involves His up coming crucifixion and resurrection from death. Jesus therefore could not have thought of any full consummation of His kingdom would NOT including His death and resurrection. Why then would He teach that within six to eight days His kingdom would be consummated on the earth? What they were given to witness was a preview.In the same gospel of Matthew when asked about the time of His second coming He indicates that the gospel of the kingdom first must be preached not only to the towns in Judea but "in the whole inhabited earth" (Matt.24:14) What indications do we have that He expected that to be done in six to eight days?The skeptics reads "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" but inserts mentally "the second coming of Christ". So those standing by dying before "the second coming of Christ" proves to them that Jesus lied in Matthew 17.Part of this could be that the skeptics only consider what Jesus does outside of them and in the earth as "the kingdom of God". God has no kingdom in their lives. They do not own Christ as their king. The rather are in rebellion against any authority of God. Since there is no kingdom of God in them they assume that there is no kingdom of God anywhere.The kingdom obviously is called the kingdom not only at its consummation but along the way of its development."And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth, And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens - how; he does not know.

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The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then full grain in the ear. But when the fruit is ripe, immediatly he sneds forth the sickle, because the harvest has come." (Mark. 4:26-29)The sprout is the kingdom. The growth and lengthening is the kingdom. The maturing and ripening is also the kingdom. And the consummation and reaping is the kingdom.The kingdom of God is a matter of God planting His divine life in man. Then this life is to grow and mature until the harvest. Since Jesus besides being God was also a man like us He demonstrated this ripening of the kingdom life in man and allowed its splendour to come out temporarily. Some standing there saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom through this temporary manifestation of the inward divine splendour.All the believers in Christ will experience the divine life growing in them. Those who are the most cooperative with be harvested at the end of the church age. Christ is in us as the hope of glory Paul writes. And He comes not only to be glorified above His saints but in His saints, as we read in Thessalonians.Brian may be eager to charge Christ with lying. But I think the problem is Brian's superficial understanding of the kingdom of the Son of Man.Paul on the other hand taught that the normal and healthy church life during these many intervening centries before the second coming of Christ, is the kingdom of God. I emphasize normal and healthy:"For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 14:17)The Apostle John as an aged man exiled to the island of Patmos says that he was at that time a worker in the kingdom of God. Neither one of these disciples postpone the kingdom life off until the second coming.So if Brian has not desire to live in the kingdom where there is reighteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, it doesn't mean that no disciples of Jesus today are experiencing that aspect of Christ's kingdom.Lastly, I hesitate to claim Jesus lied because it is obvious that a lie must be so only if it is intentional. He was God incarnate as a man and was at times under the limitation of His assumed humanity. We see times when He was surprised at something someone said. We see times when He did not know something of which He was informed. The Father had Him sometimes under the limitation of His humanity. He had to be like us.In this limitation He may have said something with limited knowledge. That would not be a lie because that would not be an intentional twisting of truth. That would be a speaking according to the knowledge of an incomplete nature as He stood on the ground of a man. This is a possible explanation not of His comment about the kingdom of the Son of Man but of the traveling through all the towns before He comes.Does this mean Jesus spoke error? Can we then assume many things He said were incorrect as He was under human limitation?The Old Testament says that God would not let any of the words of His prophet Samuel fall to the ground. God had a way to vindicate what Samuel said. It may appear that we have some mistake in what Jesus said in Matthew 17. But I say "appear".You all act according to what you think is the best reaction. For my part if God did not let Samuel's words fall to the ground I am sure He will uphold every word of the Son of God. Jesus said heaven and earth would pass away before His words would pass away. So I think His words are more secure than the physical universe itself. And I am staking my hopes on that.It boils down to eventually you have to, and you will put your trust in someone.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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I'm also showing how Paul, a prominent early Christian,imminently expected Jesus to descend from heaven and pick them all up in the clouds.
=================================What Paul SAID was those who are alive and left remaining would be thus treated.That proves that he expected:
1.) Some to no longer be alive.
2.) Quite possibly that some already preceeded these and were no longer "remaining".That Paul and John WANTED the Lord Jesus to come as soon as possible - I have no contrary argument.My argument is that the New Testmanet shows them quite responsible about the realization that He may NOT come before they expire (Christian "sleep").Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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So you only have to look at the very same book to realise that when Jesus says in Matt 16:27
"There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
he might as well be saying "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see Me return."===================================When Jesus tells the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is in their midst was that too the Son of Man coming in His kingdom then? Luke 17:20,21 - "And when He was questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observations; Nor will they say, Behold, here it is! or, There! For behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." This is definitely before the parousia of the Son of Man. This is also definitely an aspect of the kingdom of God which is not even accompanied by visible splendour to be observed.The emphasis on the kingdom of God here is spiritual and not material. It is in fact the very Savior coming the first time. Here Jesus even draws a distinction and contrast to Him being in the midst as the kingdom then and there and "the days of the Son of Man.""For behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. And He said to the disciples, The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it ..." (21b,22)Jesus is in the midst of the people telling them that the kingdom of God is in their midst. Yet He also cautions them that they will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man.So we try to take all of the teachings of Jesus into account. Jesus in the midst of His audience is the kingdom of God in thier midst on one hand. On another hand He predicts a glorious coming of the Son of Man to be left for a future time.If you come to grips with the reality that the kingdom of God is really a Person - the living Christ, it becomes much easier to take the teachings in their different aspects and emphasises.Have you realized that the kingdom of God in its most basic characteristic is simply Jesus Himself? In Jesus is the realm where God has His purest administration and His authority as the divine King.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I would put it perhaps "paradoxical" rather than contradictory. You mean the kingdom would be their in the midst of the Pharisees but not in the midst of the disciples? I don't see why that should be true. The King was there either way. So the kingdom was there with Him. I agree with some of this. Where can we argue ?? I already showed you that the parable in Mark 4 of the seed planted, growing, lengthening, bearing fruit, and being harvested were all said to be the kingdom of God. So there are stages to the kingdom of God. What does it say? Point out the word "return" in Mattew 16:28.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This seeing of the Son of Man coming in His kingdom is a preview of the manifestation of the kingdom. They got a temporary view of the glory of God’s splendor, which was previously concealed in the shell of His humanity, radiate out.Take these two words - concealed and manifested.
One means something hidden. The other means something made visible.Now the kingdom of God has both aspects. While the disciples are in the church age living under the discipline and regulation of the indwelling King they have the reality of the kingdom. But it is not manifested in its glorious appearance. People do not regard the disciples as co-kings with Christ sharing His rediant glory. They are just house wives, fellow employees, workers, high schoolers, neighbers, etc. living under the authority of Jesus Christ in His inward regulation and government.They are in the reality of the kingdom. When Jesus physically returns the reality of the kingdom is manifested. The hidden glory within will be manifested for the world to see. That little funny neighber who loved Jesus and who seemed to live under another way of life will suddenly be recognized as a glorious,radiant and divine son of God. This is the manifestation of that which was concealed.Now Jesus is among us as a human in the gospels. He is the incarnated God yet He is also human. And He takes the lead to live under this reality. He leads the way to be a man under this divine government known as God’s kingdom. He actually is the kingdom life.For a brief moment He showed some standing there His coming in His kingdom. This mean He showed them a preview of this manifestation of the divine glory concealed within the shell of His humanity. After resurrection He entered permenantly into this glorified state. But He is in heaven.The coming of the Son of Man in His kingdom is previewed on the Mt of tranfiguration. It is consummated more when the second coming of Christ rewards those living in the reality of the kingdom all during the church age.What was hidden was briefly previewed in Jesus on the Mt of Transfiguration so that some disciples may witness what would be the manifestation of this kingdom. But they were told not to tell anyone until after the resurrection. This kingdom has much to do with Christ in resurrection.Then He resurrected and entered permenantly into this glorious manifestation. Where then are the believers in Jesus now? They, like He in Matthew 17, are in the reality of the kingdom stage. It is within but concealed and hidden. At His second coming the concealed glory within them will also be manifested. ” Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father “ (Matt. 13:43a)The concealed life of God becomes the outward splendour radiating and manifesting the kingdom’s glory.The Lord Jesus promised that some living and standing would be witnesses to this phenomenon of the glorified humanity. This is a foretaste and a preview of the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. And this is a preview of the kingdom of God ( in its stage of manifestation).Though we await this manifestation of the kingdom, without doubt, those living under His invisible authority are in the reality of His kingdom already.You see you must understand that the kingdom is a matter of from the inside out. It is not something done UPON man primarily. It is something planted, growing, developing, and maturing within man.Having said that, I don’t deny there are outward actions in Christ’s kingdom which mean subduing the nations outwardly. He will no doubt knock disobeying nations into line when He comes. But this is not what is first on His heart.What is foremost on His heart is to rule men from within. This why we see in Revelation the water of life flowing from the throne of God and the Lamb. This shows He rules by dispensing His Spirit into man. He rules by imparting His divine nature into man. He rules by quenching man’s thirst with His life quenching Spirit.The kingdom is primarily Christ reigning within. What is concealed within will one day be manifested visibly in glory without. This manifestation is the Son of Man coming in His kingdom in Matthew 17.Today in heaven Christ remains in the state of splendor. Within the disciples on earth the glory is slowly working its way from the inside out to also be manifested in the constuents of His kingdom.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

What I have said above is true but general.Now a caveat. It is particularly, but not exclusively, in Matthew's gospel that this kingdom living will be rewarded. The reward is the manifestation.In other words, particulary with Matthew, it is the responsibility of the Christian to live in this reality of the kingdom. It is not automaticaly so just because one is saved. Therefore we see in Matthew the servants rewarded and punished according to how much they lived in the reality of the kingdom.The bright and glorious manifestation of the the kingdom is a reward. This the aspect which Matthew wants to emphasize. If I do not add this word you may get the impression that to simply be a believer is to live in the kingdom of God.Well we have to be born into God's kingdom according to John. We have to have the life of that kingdom to participate in that kingdom. But having the life one must grow to live by that life.Matthew is the gospel showing consequences of having or not having lived in the reality of the kingdom for the reward of its manifestation.Those not living in its reality will be disciplined in the future even though they are born of that kingdom. This makes Matthew somewhat of a difficult book for mainstream evangelical Christianity.

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The topic of thread has to do with did Jesus lie or not.I see at best we have a continued arguement about interpretation here. But lying is indeed a moral weakness.What I would like to do is to round up the posters here making the accusation of Jesus lying (and therefore moral unreliability) and obtain about 10 personal references for each one.Then I would like to contact these 10 or so personal references and ask them how they would compare the morality of Jesus Christ with the morality of each one of these particular posters.Would anyone here accusing Christ of being a liar like to provide me personal character references. I would like to ask how they would compare your morality to that of Jesus Christ, whether or not you are in a qualified position to pass moral judgment on Jesus Christ.In the meantime more than one poster has indicated that the Apostle Peter refered to the experience of the vision on the Mt of Tranfiguration as "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".If Christ's leading disciple had this understanding, why should we not take his word for it that this is what was intended by Jesus for the disciples to understand about the event? Peter, who was alive and standing there to hear Christ's promise in Matthew 16:28 of "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" discribes the event as them being eyewitnesses to "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."So what happens to the case of those salivating to embaress Christians with one argueable instance in which they can say "Aha! We caught your Jesus in a lie!"?I think you are telling us not so much about Jesus as you are about yourselves.

I don't really expect you to comply. But it would be interesting.Oh, personal written references would do in case these people were no longer alive.And in case you didn't notice this book called "The New Testament" we have written personal references. In fact I just provided one from the leading disciple Peter.What will you say now? "Peter didn't write that !!"Reaching into your bag of handy conspiracy theories manufactured by the Jesus Seminar?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Not only is Peter’s epistle a personal reference but the entire gospel of Mark is too. It is generally accepted that John Mark accompanied the Apostle Peter as an assistant and the gospel after his name consists of the messages delivered by Peter.Peter tells us that no lie was found in the mouth of Jesus (1 Peter 2:22). He also says that Jesus committed no sin (1 Peter 2:22). Peter says when He was reviled He did not revile in return (v.23). Peter says that He commited His threatening situation trustfully into the hands of God.Is there any among us who could get acquaintences to vouch for us that no lie was ever found in our mouths? Could anyone testify about us that we commited no sin?Peter has further personal references to what he knew about Jesus in the books of Acts as well. You have no original document of ANY Bible book proving that what I DO have is distortion of what was originally written. Clearly to many of us the manufacture of “claptrap” is people like you, who for 2,000 years have never stopped to slander the high character of Jesus of Nazareth. I don’t know at the moment what GTC stands for. Obviously something that you are rather proud of. My sincere congradulations. However whatever it is I don’t think it has impressed human history as much as the words and life of Jesus. The people who keep tract of such things do so pretty well. Bruce Metzger is one scholar who kept track of all the known copies of the New Testament and statistics on variations of translation.Could you document a variation in MSS that effects one of these major tenets of the Christian faith?1.) That Jesus is the Son of God
2.) That He died for our sins
3.) That He rose from the dead on the third day
4.) That He can be known as the indwelling Lord
5.) That He will come a second time physically
6.) That through Him we can have redemption and eternal life
7.) He will reign forever and everWhich copyist or translation decrepency of any two or more MSS effects one of these major doctrines of the Christian church? So you think in terms of personal integrity you surpass Jesus?I don’t think you have the approvedness to class yourself with Jesus Christ, no disrespect meant to the GTC whatever that is. Even strong agnostics like H.G. Wells had quite high things to say about Jesus Christ. Wells said that Jesus was so wise that when He opened His lips His insight embraced the whole world. (Perhaps someone can produce the quote more accurately).Anyway that staunch evolutionist thus spoke very highly of Jesus. When you open your lips does your wisdom embrace the whole world too?If you don’t like Peter’s reference you also have Pontius Pilate who said he could find no fault in Jesus (in spite of the fact that fear of pressure from an unhappy populace caused Pilate to unfairly sentence Jesus to death.Would everyone at the GTC say that they could find no fault in you whatsoever about anything? It is right under your nose. You should dust it off and read it sometime.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Of course in the eyes of God it has all taken place already. There is no time element with His divine viewpoint. That is why in Revelation John sees everything as already accomplished.From our standpoint we are waiting for the full view of the preview. And some are in paradise, having fallen asleep in Jesus (died in Christ) are praying for Him more and more to vindicate their sacrifices by coming.This is seen in the prayers of the martyred believers underneath the altar in Revelation 6:9-11. As the years go by more and more of the faithful fall asleep in Christ and join the mighty corporate cry from paradise for Christ to come. And we who are alive also are crying out to Him for His coming.In the mean time we need more of His being wrought into our lives. For what can we take into the next age except the Christ that has been imparted into our living? We need the time to be more and more saturated with His Spirit.So we await the full taste of the foretaste. Practically speaking you and I are not promised even tomorrow. How do we know we will not be called to die in some accident? In that sense Christ's coming for us is whenever we die.You have no assurance that Christ's coming for you may not be this evening.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The glory of Christ's divinity was concealed within the shell of His humanity. Instead of the word humanity we might say His flesh (John 1:14). John says the very Word Who was God became flesh. Christ's divinity is itself the divine glory. Just as "God is light" (1 John 1:5) , divinity is glory. When Christ was in the flesh, His humanity, His flesh was a shell which concealed His divinity and thereby concealed His glory.Although in His living He expressed the attributes of God within His human virtues, the glory of His divinity was mostly concealed by the shell of His humanity, His flesh.John chapter 12 shows us that it was His plan that the concealing shell of the grain of wheat must be broken to release the life if the seed. The one grain represented Jesus and as the grain had to fall into the ground to die to produce many grains, so Jesus had to have the shell of His humanity broken in crucifixion and death and burial to release the divine element from within Him.Before His death however, some of the disciples got a preview of the concealed glory radiating out for a brief moment. They were then told not to tell anyone until the Son of Man be raised from the dead. In God's plan it was to be the death and resurrection that would release the hidden divine glory. The transfiguration was only a preview.In His resurrection His divine life was not only released into His disciple but the divine glory saturated His physical body. Stephen and Paul saw Him in heaven transfigured and as He will appear in His Second Coming.This glory is not concealed in the same way within His redeemed people. He comes to be glorified not only above His saints but in His saints and to be marveled at in them:" ... When He comes to be glorified IN HIS SAINTS and to be marveled at IN ALL those who have believed ..." (2 Thess. 1:10)The believers have been called "unto the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess. 2:14)"... He who has called you into His eternal glory in Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a little while, will Himself perfect, establish, strengthen, and ground you." (1 Peter. 5:10)He is the Captain of salvation like Joshua, leading many sons of God into the glorious expression of the Divine Being:"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings" (Heb 2:10)We the save shall be like Him for we shall see Him even as He is (1 John 3:2)He is in the believers living as thier inward hope of glory:" ... what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory." (Col. 1:27)The full view of the preview must follow Christ's death and resurrection, which has happened. And it must follow the suffering and preparation of the church age in which we are driven out of living our old Adamic life to living Christ. Then He as the hope of glory will also radiate out of the believers, being marveled at in them who believed, and being glorified in the saints.

Yes. They got a preview of the essence of something the fullest occurence of which we still await. Some have fallen asleep in Christ and await it. And some are alive and await it.Speaking for my interpretation of the matter which I think is correct. You are following.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This is a good point truthlover.I think there is no question that all of the disciples wanted Christ to come in the manifestation of His kingdom as soon as possible. What parted lovers never yearn to be together again? (I speak of His physical re-union with the disciples).It is not likely that Jesus was deliberately lying. One lies for self interest usually. Everything about the willingness of Jesus to die under torture for the Father's will is simply not consistent with someone wanting something in a selfish way.The testimony of the life of Jesus is that He was absolute for the will of the Father. He would spare nothing. He would shirk nothing. He would preserve for Himself nothing. He only cared about doing the will of God. Someone has to explain to me what they think Jesus would be accompishing by deliberately lying about the events around His manifestation of His kingdom in His second coming.Do you think by this He could get more enthusiasm from the disciples? This is unlikely. He latter told them that they would all forsake Him to save themselves. He had no trust in their ability to be faithful.He had just rebuked Peter for speaking for Satan in implying that He (Jesus) should avoid the cross. He would not pity Himself but would indeed go to be crucified. What then would lying about something secure for this one who was ready to be crucified?Can Legend tell us what he thinks Jesus would be trying to accomplish by deceiving the disciples that His second coming was sooner than He know it would be?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

He has a strange view of the world??As I read through your posts a hodge podge of denials and references to things supposedly that you don't believe, it seems you're the one in a real state of confusion.You're free from believing in Christ, Hip Hip Hooray! And yet you claim Satan spoken of in the same Bible has done a good job?I can't tell by what criteria you accept some things from the Bible and reject others. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : WARNING