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Author | Topic: Developing Countries: Birth Control? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: The part you are leaving out, and the part that, if left out, will make anything else you do irrelevant, is women's rights. It is in patriarchal cultures where women have few rights and are not educated that bearing children (particularly male children) is the most any girl can aspire to. It's the pinnacle of achievement. In places where men are in control, they simply refuse to use condoms, for example, and it doesn't occur to anyone that a woman can say no to sex without one. Or no to sex at all. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: ...and to many Christian regions in Africa, South and Central america, as well. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: There is nothing particularly special about gestating a pregnancy and giving birth. Most of it happens without any active participation from the girl or woman. Almost any woman, regardless of intelligence, wisdom, education, etc., can pop out a baby. It's very interesting that you are inclined to think that something even a brain-dead woman on life-support can do is the "greateast achievement a woman can do."
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No, not at all. It's just not the greatest achievement a girl or woman can aspire to, is all.
quote: Sure, they can feel a little proud. But that's not the same as it being the greatest thing they can aspire to. Raising a child to be a happy, intelligent, giving member of society is a much greater achievement and IS one of the the greatest achievements anyone can aspire to. Giving birth is merely biological. Parenting the resulting child well is the part that is a true achievement.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So, because we cannot help ALL of the starving children, we shouldn't bother to help reduce the number of them living in poverty at all?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No Jon, it is NOT the government's money. That YOUR money. And MY money. Tax dollars are the American people's money. And WE get to decide what we do with it through the representatives we elect to office and to the extent that we pay attention to how those representatives vote to spend our money.
quote: You don't vote. Therefore, you have absolutely NO right to have any opinion whasoever on what our elected officials do with tax funds. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No. I want to reduce the number of people in poverty by reducing the number of additional people added to the world's population, AND by encouraging people to adopt children who are already here. But you didn't actually address my question. Do you seriously believe that because we cannot save all starving children, we shouldn't try to do anything at all to help any of them? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I never said that. I said that if you want the right to an opinion on what our elected officials do with OUR tax dollars, then you are required to participate in our democracy by voting.
quote: You know, getting all emotional and purposefully exaggerating your opponent's position to the point of misrepresentation only makes you look foolish and childish. You don't have a right to an opinion because you chose to abdicate it by choosing not to vote. As you say, it is your choice, but there are consequences to that choice. You don't participate, you don't get to have an opinion. Or, perhaps more accurately, your opinion doesn't matter.
quote: But then that just makes you an obnoxious whiner who complains but refuses to participate in the process he is complaining about.
quote: LOL! I've got to hand it to you, Jon. It takes some pretty big cojones to compare your own apathy regarding participation in our democracy to women's suffrage activists.
quote: Well, perhaps that's a start for you. So, do you understand that it's not "the government's money" but OUR money, and the elected officials do not have the right to spend as they see fit without any reference to or consideration of the wishes of the American people? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. Edited by schrafinator, : fixed spelling and added a clarification.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I don't recall anyone, let alone everyone, wishing that people in developing countries would stop reproducing altogether, so that's a strawman.
quote: Yeah, it is silly, which is why I didn't make that argument.
quote: I don't think that.
quote: Sure it does, by freeing up more resources for the people who still live in that developing country.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Oh whah, wah, whah. If you can't stand the heat...
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: That's not true at all. At a certain point in wealth creation, money starts working for you. Through investments, your money earns more money and you don't do any work at all even though you are getting richer and richer. Now, Bill Gates had great ideas and is a great entrepeneur and businessman, but it is just completely false to say that he actually "worked by the sweat of his brow" for every penny. Jon, I'm going to give you some unasked-for advice. There are a lot of pretty basic life things you don't know about yet because you haven't lived in the world long enough to know them. The next time you feel your righteous anger swelling up within you in response to one of these posts that question or criticize your position on a given issue, perhaps you might think about asking questions regarding why people hold the opinions they do. This would possibly help you learn from people who know more about the world simply because we've lived in it longer. Now, before you have yet another swell of righteous indignation, let me say that you are a bright kid but you are inexperienced and ignorant. We were all inexperienced and ignorant at one time, too, so it's not like we don't know how it is. I just think you'd serve yourself better by taking advantage of the wisdom and experience that you have at your disposal here. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
At a certain point in wealth creation, money starts working for you. Through investments, your money earns more money and you don't do any work at all even though you are getting richer and richer. quote: Yes, but that runs counter to your initial claim, that every penny Gates has is due to the sweat of his brow. Furthermore, if someone is born wealthy, like Gates' kid, they never have to work at all. All they have to do to remain spectauclarly wealthy is to pay the right people to properly manage their portfolio. What is THEIR money a "reward" for? The majority of wealthy people, jon, are not "self made". Those people are rare, and are a part of the mythology of the "American Dream". Most rich people in America are born that way.
quote: Did you notice that I put the phrase "sweat of his brow" in quotes? That indicated that I was using that phrase euphamistically to mean "earned all his money by actuvely doing work." After he got to a certain point in wealth accumulation, he did not have to work at all to get richer. That's the point.
quote: LOL! One doesn't "start" a billion dollare software company! Gates started his "startup" like every other startup company; nobody knew from Microsoft back in the early days. Dozens or more of those are founded every month, by people just as knowledgeable and innovative as Gates. Timing and luck are important factors in who makes it big in business and who only makes it OK, or who doesn't make it at all.
quote: Well, you are! So was I at your age. There was no possible way I could know what I do now 20 years ago because I hadn't lived in the world long enough to learn them. Some things can only be learned that way, jon. [qyuote]If you ask me, I think it's just a cop-out so you don't really have to address any true problems. Just slap a label on my morals and beliefs and you can sit back and relax.[/quote] ...except that I do address the issues you raise.
quote: LOL! Of course they are, jon. This is true for any thinking person who reflects upon world and personal events.
quote: That is only partially right. How damn old were you when you decided slavery was wrong? It wasn't all that long ago that many people had no moral problem with slavery. Morals change with cultures, too.
There are a lot of pretty basic life things you don't know about yet because you haven't lived in the world long enough to know them. quote: No, not at all. When you grow up and experience more of the world you will, hopefully, not make as many factual mistakes that are a direct result of your lack of knowledge. Look, it's not a matter of opinion if Gates earned every penny by working for it. He didn't, period. A great deal of his wealth is created without him lifting a finger. I certainly didn't understand that concept when I was your age, so I'm not expecting you to have understood it either.
quote: I already answered your questions, jon.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Sure it does, by freeing up more resources for the people who still live in that developing country. quote: Yes. Isn't that what you asked about? Didin't you ask: "if you adopt them out of that society"?
quote: Well, most diseases that kill children in developing countries are not "strange, incurable" ones, but treatable ones. To say that the two choices are "healthy children" and "children dying of strange incurable diseases" is a strawman. Also, it is highly unlikely that every single one of the healthy children will be adopted out of a country by people in developed nations, so that's another of your strawmen. In addition, freeing up more resources for the remaining people will likely raise the standard of living for the people who are there now and those who follow.
quote: More money per person to raise their standards of living, so that the children that are subsequently born will be less likely to contract preventable diseases, or starve to death. Now, for the third time, will you please answer the question: So, because we cannot help ALL of the starving children, we shouldn't bother to help reduce the number of them living in poverty at all? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Gasby writes:
Schraf, you're not going to get through to him. For now, he's too angry to understand what you are saying. Just give him a few days to cool down. I've talked to young people enough times to know once they are angry you might just as well talk to a wall. Jon replies:
quote: ROTFLMAO!!!! Wow, jon, you do realize that you just confirmed gasby's statement about you, don't you? Especially the part where you stick your bottom lip out and petulantly declare, "I'll never agree with you or your opinion." I can almost hear you stamping your foot. Thanks, that was a great laugh to start my day with. Teenagers are hilarious! I'm sure I acted just as obnoxious as you; I must have been a real dick. LOL!!! Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. Edited by schrafinator, : fixed spelling
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Teenagers are hilarious! quote: Many of them are, and it's through no fault of their own, but because their minds are failing. You have no excuse for your behavior. Well, not much of one. You at least have a choice.
quote: The thing is, I don't try to lecture seniors (except buzsaw, because he's so wrong about so many things). I ask them questions and try to learn from them.
quote: Wah, wah, wah. If you don't want to get your wrist slapped, then don't keep putting it out there unprotected so frequently. I mean, this is a debate board. If you don't want your position to be ripped up, don't put it out there. And you are ignorant. So am I, and so are we all, about many things. The sooner you accept this, the quicker you will learn.
quote: No, I attack your position over and over and over again. I disagree with you and present facts and explanations for why I disagree. Your job then is to counter with different and/or better facts and explanations. I made it perfectly clear when I was debating and when I was giving you advice.
quote: That is a strawman, because nobody ever suggested that we adopt ALL the children out of poverty. I don't have to address arguments I never made and that you wished I had, hon.
quote: Once again, you agreeing with me is not my goal. You presenting better arguments that are based upon facts, and also that do not rely upon strawmen, is.
quote: Stop behaving like a little child. I already told you once in messgar #83 upthread:
No, not at all. When you grow up and experience more of the world you will, hopefully, not make as many factual mistakes that are a direct result of your lack of knowledge. quote: No, it's just the truth. It cannot be otherwise, by definition. There's no shame in being inexperienced and ignorant, you know, except if you choose to willfully remain so.
quote: You mean like calling people "dicks"? Would that be behaving in a grown up manner, would you say?
quote: That would be interesting, since I never stated that this is my wish. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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