Developing Countries: Birth Control?

There is a difference between a right and an unspoken moral obligation. I would say that anybody in the world has the right to breed as many times as he/she wants. However, that does not mean that it is moral for the person to breed as many times as he/she wants. With bearing children comes responsibility. One of those responsibilities is doing everything you can to nurture and protect your young.With that said, I could also make the argument that everyone has a right to pop out and then abandon the child. See the difference?Therefore, I think that everyone has the right to make babies. I also think that everyone has the responsibility to not make their children suffer starvation, and one of the ways to do that is either have 1 or 2 children where he knows he can support or not have any at all.It is easy for people like us who lives in a first world country to sit on our high thrones and make the argument for a right like breeding. But what about the children? Jon, I'm sorry, but this is one of the most unempathetic statement I've seen. What about the children? What about the children that were forced into a world of slow starvation, disease, parasites, and abuse? What about them? While we are sitting here arguing about how people have a right to have sex or make babies, children are out there starving and not have any right at all. What about them?There's a reason why my spouse and I have decided not to have any children of our own. Why breed when there are millions of children out there waiting to be adopted? The sooner people realize that there is a difference between a basic human right (ex: breed) and moral obligation (ex: love the children who haven't got any right) the sooner these children can stop suffering.Actually, you don't have to go very far to see children in ragged clothing and having to beg for food. Here in the states there are plenty of children who were brought into this world and not have any protection or nuturing.So, excuse me while I sit on my high throne and say that sometimes people value rights such as the right breed enough that they are blind to see just how many children suffer because apparently some people just can't stop using this right.Edited by gasby, : No reason given.

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Too late. The difference is already in the tens, if not hundreds, of millions. Then of course we really don't know for sure. In china, with its 1 child per family policy, people have found ways to beat this policy and not kill their baby girls. One way is to not register them at all.

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Good job, Jon, for winning the quote mining award of the month. Hey, you're the one arguing FOR people's right to keep popping those babies out and I'm the one that's saying people should also consider the moral obligation for caring for their unborn children enough not to bring them into the world if they're going to starve anyway.Good job for taking my words completely out of context. Actually, yes. The U.S. has the capacity to feed the whole world if we didn't have kind of economic policy today. If you want, I'm sure someone else can explain this better than I can. I don't feel like talking to another person with the its-either-them-or-us mentality. False dilemma. It's simple. Just do your part and refrain from breeding. Save your resources to adopt. Even adopting 1 kid takes 1 more person out of the poverty level. A hundred people adopting a hundred kids take a hundred people out of poverty. Heck, if every christian was to be as moral as they claim to be, the world wouldn't be in such a mess.Sorry, just my rant.Anyway, please refrain from misinterpreting my message. Take it in context. We were talking about people's right to breed. YOU support people having the right to pop out as many children as they want to... apparently because you don't feel any affect it would have on you. I also support people's right but I also want to deliver the message that people should be aware of obligations. And one of those obligations is the obligation to see if you're bringing a child into the world after you've considered what you'll be bringing it into. Should people exercise their rights out of pure selfish reasons (I wanna be a mom/dad...) or should they love their unborn, unconceived child enough not to bring it into a world of sickness, parasites, and malnourishment?

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Yes and no. In the old days, yes this was the purpose of having so many children. But that doesn't apply nowadays. Even in the worst of the worst developing countries, there are just enough resources and international aid to keep these people alive. It's not enough to keep them from being malnourished and full of parasites, but it's just enough to keep them barely alive. Sorry, but I simply don't see these children as mere statistics. I see them as real human beings who can suffer.In other words, so what if these children aren't putting that much more pressure on their economy? They're people and they should be treated as such, not some factor that is in long lines of economic equations.Perhaps I have a perspective that is hard for others to have due to the time I spent in developing nations watching these people demonstrate just how misled we were about developing nations. Trust me, these people aren't reproducing because they need extra hands to farm or whatever. It's purely for selfish reasons and ignorance... and religion (be fruitful and multiply). One time when I was asked by some locals if I had a family and if not will I have one I told them I didn't have a family and that I wasn't sure if I wanted to have a family. My answer shocked many. It is inconceivable for them to think for a minute that people don't have to keep popping out children. In other words, they've been taught by their cultures and religions to have as many children as they possibly can just cuz.Anyway, my advice would be to forget what you learned in school about developing countries. Just go to one and see for yourself. Trust me, you'll stop seeing them as some distant strangers, numbers on long lists of world problems, or natural selection at work.Edited by gasby, : No reason given.

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Jon strikes me as an idealistic college kid who has little life experience with real people. His words are classic text book examples of how Americans view poverty.

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Jon, how confident is your reading comprehension? Please go back and read my posts before you decide to put words in my mouth again. Would you like to tell me where I say these people can't enjoy the same rights as people in developed nations? So, are you saying that in the mean time you'll continue to see these people as numbers on long lists of world problems? This sounds vaguely familiar somehow.Yes, yes, you have your pride and you must not lose to an argument. How about I make you feel better and say that you win this one?

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I'm not suggesting anyone give up his right. I'm suggesting YOU to volunteer to refrain from exercising such right just so 1 more kid out there wouldn't have to sleep in shit. Hey, don't say that to me. Say it to yourself. You're the one that is arguing FOR people to exercise the right to breed as many times as humanly possible without considering the obligations that is involved.I still don't see where I've suggested that we take away people's right to breed. So, either point it out or swallow your pride and admit that you've either intentionally or unintentionally misrepresenting what I've said.Edited by gasby, : No reason given.

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You remind me of some people that play games online. One time, I was playing a strategy game where 3 people are fighting 3 people. The point of the game is teamwork. It's all about teamwork. The other team decided to attack all at once. I put everything I had into the route that they were attacking to try to stop them. I asked my partners for help and they just stood there trying to build up more defenses around their bases. When they finally sent help, they sent all the wrong units.Ok, one thing you have to understand about strategy game is that every fighting unit has a weakness and that there is always another unit that exploits this weakness. For example, if they attack you with tanks, it is suicide to send marines to counter. Instead, bombers are much better at countering tanks. If they attack you with bombers, don't send tanks to counter. Send fighter planes. If they attack you with fighter planes, don't use bombers. Use anti-air missiles or better fighter planes.My partners were sending all the wrong units and in the "heat of the battle" I promptly told them that they were sending the wrong types of units to defend. What do most teenagers do in that situation? They let their pride get in their way. They countered me with "I don't see your units stoping them."Of course my units weren't stopping them. I was outnumbered 3 to 1.Of course it's silly to point out the obvious fact that I can't save the whole damn world. However, I can try to do the best I can and offer what little help I can offer.Imagine that, Jon the king of the bloody obvious. Can't say I agree with your view. But part of being me that's so wonderful is I let you have your own view. If you don't want to adopt, then don't adopt. How so? If you are 21 or older it is perfectly legal for you to drink. If I have a friend who is an alcoholic, should I not try to convince him at all to get help? Should I just respect his right to drink and let him drink himself to death? Gee... let me see here...

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Jon writes:
The children are people, but so are their parents who want to enjoy the same rights enjoyed by those individuals in developed countries. Why can't they? It's their rights too!

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Looks pretty clear to me you were saying that I said that some people can't enjoy the right of being biological parents.And then later on...

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Jon writes:
I don't know who you are talking about here, but either way you are suggesting that someone give up their right (or not use it) in order to "fix" the problem. Disgusting really.

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Well, quote me where I said this or retract what you said.I know you are an emo kid on an emo trip, but I'm not letting you off that easily. If you are willing to admit that you don't care at all about people in other parts of this world, at least have the will to admit a simple misread or misinterpretation of what someone else wrote. Now you are just resorting to improper comparasons. Homosexuals consent. I don't think any of those kids who were born into poverty consented to anything. But to be fair, I've been saying all along that if people want to keep breeding then go right ahead because it is their right. I am, however, advicing them that simply popping out children ain't enough. There are obligations involved. Hundreds? Man have you been misled.How about this. I'll be more direct and tell you that I don't think it is immoral for you to pop out your own kids. I don't think it is immoral for you not to pick up a teenage hitchhiker, especially in winter time. It is entirely up to you to decide what you want to do. For me, I chose to pick up a teenage hitchhiker and drove him 40 miles out of my way back to his home where he could settle some things with his parents after running away for a year. I've also chosen to offer what little help I can give to orphans out there.Christian evangelicals try to convert me all the time. Can't this atheist point out some nice things his fellow men can do to make this world a little nicer for people? Let me tell you something. I'm cheap. I currently don't have a winter coat because I've been too cheap to buy one. I just wear several layers of sweatshirts and thermals I picked up at good will and walmart clearance sections. I'm a programmer and I use a decade old computer. Instead of buying books, I just pick them up at the library (and I'm a heavy reader... almost a book every two or three days). I drive a car that I wrecked and put back together because it works. You can imagine the rest.It's not that I don't have the money. It's that I see no reason why I should spend money on stuff I know I won't miss if I don't buy.But being such a cheap bastard that I am, I don't think I can put a price tag on another person. For me, it's all about the scale. Let see... I spend so-and-so amount of money to adopt a kid. In turn, I lose a large sum of money. But I still have my wife and my house. I still have my dogs. I most definitely still have all the stuff that makes me happy. My bank account will just be a lot lower.But on the other hand, if I don't adopt the potential kid that I would have adopted if I decided to adopt would remain in severe poverty with no hope of bettering himself. He has nothing. He has no rights. He remains infested with 20 different parasites. He remains malnourished to the day he expires. He will never have anything close to human dignity.Gee... that's a tough one...NOT!

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Well, if you bothered to think about what I said, you'd realized that I wasn't comparing real life to strategy gaming. The point was that as much as I'd like to help, I can't do it alone. And it is silly to suggest that I can really save the world all by myself.

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I'm not here to sway someone from having kids. I'm here to play on your conscience, but apparently you don't have one. So, you can't find any instance where I said people should stop having kids? If I've said it numerous times, shouldn't it be easy for you to point out at least one instance where I said this? With every good deed, there is a risk. I think sometimes the good that comes out of it outweighs the risk. Children in wealthy nations don't slowly starve and infested by 20 different parasites. And yes, they can't consent, which is the whole point. I belong to the old school of thought where the strong is suppose to help the weak, not ignore them. Once again, you demonstrate a complete lack of reading comprehension. After I wrote whole paragraphs how this isn't about morality, you can still come out and say such at thing. And if you bothered to read my posts without interjecting all your emotions in there, you'd realize that I said it was my personal decision and that it wasn't a moral question.But let's take a look at this for a minute. On one hand, we have people who seriously need help. In order to get them any hope, some will have to put a guilt trip on others. So, it's either starving children or just some 18 year old feeling a little tiny bit guilty for not helping. Once again, I really think the needs the starving children have outweighs your need to have a guilt-free conscience. No argument here. However, it would surprise you to know I used to party a lot in college. You know perfectly well that what you decide to do with your breakfast has no bearing on the people in other parts of the world. You're just being silly.

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While I agree with your assessment, I'm not sure I see any other way China could have solved its population problem at the time while its government still maintained such a tight grip on everything.

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I'm guessing you're referring to message 17. That's not a 300 foot ivory tower. That's just a 10 foot rock. But anyway, it makes sense.

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Schraf, you're not going to get through to him. For now, he's too angry to understand what you are saying. Just give him a few days to cool down. I've talked to young people enough times to know once they are angry you might just as well talk to a wall.

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