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Author Topic:   Developing Countries: Birth Control?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 99 (368605)
12-09-2006 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
12-08-2006 11:44 PM


Population control
I was having a chat with a particular member who stated that people in developing (they used the term "third world") countries should not have children they cannot support. They did not state that they believed any laws should be passed or anything of that sort. They just stated that they felt it to be morally wrong.
Well, it must be convenient for them to live in a more privileged society where he/she is morally secure in deciding to have children.
I would like to disagree with that statement, and open it up for debate. I think that all people have the same moral rights when it comes to having children. It is their choice, and they can exercise the right if they wish. I would also like to point out that a well fed child in America does a lot more damage to the world than an entire community of starving babies in Africa. If my information is wrong, please someone correct me.
I would like to disagree with that member as well. I understand the argument they are making, but the resolution they offered is tantamount to disfranchisement. I'm sure many of us have wondered why people's in the poorer parts of the globe seem to have inordinate amount of children. It seems that if a family limited themselves to one or two children, they would be more able to adequately care for the children they have, rather than adding more hungry mouths to feed.
There are several factors for why this is. For starters, there is a lack of contraceptives in that region because contraceptives cost money. To mitigate the effect of sexually transmitted diseases and unwanted pregnancies, perhaps we should be sending over free contraceptives. The second contributing factor is probably a lack of awareness. An increase in awareness would also help to mitigate these effects. Abstinence-before-marriage should also be taught as a virtue, not as something that is only for religious weirdos.
But even though the variables I raised may be the case, it doesn't take away the fact that people are allowed to have children. What did this person suggest? That we model after China who forcibly limits its citizens to one child per familial unit?
Anyway, that's my take on it.

"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 12-08-2006 11:44 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by nator, posted 12-09-2006 4:45 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 99 (368687)
12-09-2006 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Chiroptera
12-09-2006 1:17 PM


It takes two to tango
Finally, remember that poverty in the third world is largely due to continued exploitation by the Western capitalist structure. In recent decades, every time a country has met the IMF's demands to cut taxes, cut support services, open the economy to foreign investment, and loosen currency controls, living conditions decrease dramatically, and this is not temporary.
Capitalist enterprises need to stop sending jobs overseas for a few reasons. Yes, sending jobs overseas will cut down on costs because of cheap labor and does have temporal advantages. However, these companies aren't seeing the big picture. If you keep taking jobs away from Americans, the economy is going to take a nosedive without generating new jobs. Without jobs, people don't have the money to buy those products that they are making in sweatshops in third world nations. So they are essentially cinching their own noose, and ours.
Secondly, there is a moral issue with the sweatshop mentality. It is unfair to pay people overseas disparaging wages, even if that is considered decent money in that country. Its not right to do that to those people. If you strengthen other countries economies, you stengthen the global market. Pay them what they are worth.
Having said that, it takes two to tango. You can't place the blame squarely on Western capitalists as the sole beneficiary of blame. These nations 'allow' those companies to exploit their own people, because essentially they are ending up exploiting the companies who are exploiting the workers. The average worker is the one losing in the end, twice. I think just as much focus should be placed on these governments who exploit their own citizens for monetary gain.
For instance, China has done a bang up job at allowing Western companies to exploit their citizens in order to exploit us. Its genius, really. And now that they've adopted a free trade market, the money is rolling in. However, since they are fiscal cheapskates, they aren't strenthening the average worker, they are strengthening its governmental infrastructure.
The centroid of power has been shifting Western since the time of the rise of the whole Mesopotamian region, like Babylon and Persia. It went from Egypt to Greece, going to Rome, and to Paris and London, then to the US. It still continues to travel westward until the westward expansion finally ends up in the Far East. India and China are on their way to becoming economic powerhouses, which in turn will make them military powerhouses, and we are actually helping them to achieve that goal. If we continue down this path, we might as well just hand them the gun that is going to kill us.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : edit to add

"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Chiroptera, posted 12-09-2006 1:17 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Chiroptera, posted 12-09-2006 4:35 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 99 (368713)
12-09-2006 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Chiroptera
12-09-2006 4:35 PM


Re: It takes two to tango
Often, these ruling classes don't have a choice in the matter. International aid organizations, notably the IMF, place restrictions on the governments ability to run their own countries.
The IMF doesn't make sanctions like the UN does. And this is all contingent upon an agreement. Pacts aren't forced on nations, they agree to them. So, again, its their government that needs to be looked at in this debacle.
Mossadegh in Iran, Arbenz in Guatamala, Allende in Chile, the Sandanistas in Nicaragua, Chavez in Venezuela -- every one of these have been declared dictators, a threat to peace, and removed from power with the help of foreign governments (although the last attempt in Venezuela was not successful).
I don't know where you are going with this. Can you explain it to me?
If the nations were allowed to run their own countries the way the people felt they should be run, then in most cases the elites who are "allowing" this to happen would not be in power.
Nations are run by those in power when it should be run by the People, and for the People. Unfortunately, in many nations, it is those in power who have all the control. Really, I'm just objecting to you placing the blame squarely on successful companies, as if they are the sole proprietors of power. The governments of these nations are allowing the sweatshops, which, really, are actually better than the alternative for many people. I think the American people should be outraged at some of these companies that pander themselves for the almighty mammon, but we should be even more outraged at the nations that prostitute its own constituents.
In fact, China is a case in point. A fairly brutal dictatorship -- in fact, used by fundamentalists as an example of the evils of "official atheism" -- and at least a potential threat to its neighbors. Yet, simply by deciding to do business with the West, it has gone from brutal Communist dictator to friendly trading partner, even though it is the same people in power, treating its citizens in the same way, and posing the same threat it always has to its neighbors.
I agree. I mean, on the one hand, we are trying to open to China because it might improve relations and generate economic growth for both nations. On the other hand, if we are going to put our foot down about North Korea, Iran, and Syria, we shouldn't hypocritically turn aside from Chinese issues.

"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Chiroptera, posted 12-09-2006 4:35 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Chiroptera, posted 12-09-2006 6:47 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 99 (368715)
12-09-2006 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by nator
12-09-2006 4:45 PM


Re: Population control
The part you are leaving out, and the part that, if left out, will make anything else you do irrelevant, is women's rights.
That seems like a side issue while we are looking at the broader picture.
It is in patriarchal cultures where women have few rights and are not educated that bearing children (particularly male children) is the most any girl can aspire to. It's the pinnacle of achievement.
In places where men are in control, they simply refuse to use condoms, for example, and it doesn't occur to anyone that a woman can say no to sex without one. Or no to sex at all.
Look no further than to the Middle East. China is actually moving away from this mindset more and more. And for the most part, some Middle Eastern nations are becoming more Westernized in this way, but they have a long way to go. You also have to remember that this has been apart of their culture for so long that these ways die hard-- especially when fanatical Islam is supplanting moderate Islam. Some of the women want it this way. You'd first have to convince them of a better way before you do the patriachically-minded males.

"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by nator, posted 12-09-2006 4:45 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by nator, posted 12-09-2006 6:17 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 99 (368755)
12-09-2006 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Chiroptera
12-09-2006 6:47 PM


Re: It takes two to tango
Without loans and aid, the nation in question cannot even pay back its previous loans, loans usually taken out by a previous dictator, much of which often went to pay for the dictator's whims.
They could do what the evil, tyrannical US did and cancel all the debt from Africa as a gesture of good faith.
What do you think would happen if the country went into default? No more loans. No more aid of any kind. Probably trade sanctions. Maybe, if the country were obstinate, direct military intervention.
No, I don't see that happening any time soon for the sole reason that this money between nations is largely fictitious. What I mean is, every nation on earth, (with the sole exception of Monaco-- maybe one or two others) is in debt. Who owes who, and how much, kind of cancels itself out unless you are a nation that deals out a lot of monetary support. I'm sure we owe France, and France owes us, and we owe Israel, and Israel owes us.
I do, however, have a theory on one of the main reasons why the US invaded Iraq. It has to do with the value of the US dollar. I'm not going to go into a huge discourse, but I'm surprised no leftist circles have caught wind of it.
I'm not going anywhere with this. I was answering a previous comment you made
Ah, thanks for clarifying.
These were governments that didn't allow companies to exploit their own people. The first three were overthrown in Western backed coups and replaced by repressive dictatorships. In the fourth case, the people used the democratic process to signal their surrender in the face of US backed terrorism and elected a government they did not, in fact, support. In the last case we have seen an attempt at a coup by individuals that recieve funding from foreign NGOs that recieve money from the US government.
Yes, but who knew they would bite the hand that feeds?
I am no more placing the blame solely on the companies than you are in placing the blame solely on the governments.
I'm not. I agreed that these companies need to stop shipping their jobs overseas because they are hurting themselves, and by default, all of us, in the long run. Hence, why I made the sub-title, "It take TWO to tango."
Like I presume you are doing, I am simply pointing the complexities of the actual situation, and that saying that "countries shouldn't allow their people to be exploited" doesn't really do much to illuminate the actual situation.
It means we shouldn't do business with nations that treat their own people so disparagingly, because what does it say about us that we turn a blind eye to it? If means we become isolationistic in the eyes of them, so be it.
See, we have a real catch-22 situation in the US. We are constantly being harangued for "sticking our nose in the affairs of other nations." When we allow them to conduct their governments as they see fit, then we get them whining about how we left them high and dry. Seems that we can't win no matter what we do. So we might as well stand by our laurels and forget whether or not we're P.C. enough.

"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Chiroptera, posted 12-09-2006 6:47 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Sour, posted 12-10-2006 10:46 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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