Developing Countries: Birth Control?

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There are several factors for why this is. For starters, there is a lack of contraceptives in that region because contraceptives cost money. To mitigate the effect of sexually transmitted diseases and unwanted pregnancies, perhaps we should be sending over free contraceptives. The second contributing factor is probably a lack of awareness. An increase in awareness would also help to mitigate these effects. Abstinence-before-marriage should also be taught as a virtue, not as something that is only for religious weirdos.

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The part you are leaving out, and the part that, if left out, will make anything else you do irrelevant, is women's rights.It is in patriarchal cultures where women have few rights and are not educated that bearing children (particularly male children) is the most any girl can aspire to. It's the pinnacle of achievement.In places where men are in control, they simply refuse to use condoms, for example, and it doesn't occur to anyone that a woman can say no to sex without one. Or no to sex at all. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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Look no further than to the Middle East.

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...and to many Christian regions in Africa, South and Central america, as well.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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While I see what you are saying, I would like to point out that bearing children is a pretty big achievement, and probably one of the greatest ones any woman can do. I mean, when was the last time a man crapped out a kid? I mean, there are a lot of other really important things in anyone's life, but giving birth to a child should really trump them all, no? Of course, this is providing that both parties are willing.

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There is nothing particularly special about gestating a pregnancy and giving birth. Most of it happens without any active participation from the girl or woman.Almost any woman, regardless of intelligence, wisdom, education, etc., can pop out a baby.It's very interesting that you are inclined to think that something even a brain-dead woman on life-support can do is the "greateast achievement a woman can do."

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You act like giving birth is the lowest form of activity around,

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No, not at all.It's just not the greatest achievement a girl or woman can aspire to, is all.

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yet I think anyone who can bring another life into existance should feel a little proud, eh?

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Sure, they can feel a little proud.But that's not the same as it being the greatest thing they can aspire to.Raising a child to be a happy, intelligent, giving member of society is a much greater achievement and IS one of the the greatest achievements anyone can aspire to.Giving birth is merely biological.Parenting the resulting child well is the part that is a true achievement.

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I am saying it to you in order to point out the fact that you are never going to win. All you can do is let people have all the damn kids they want and then let them die. You just cannot save the whole damn world.

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So, because we cannot help ALL of the starving children, we shouldn't bother to help reduce the number of them living in poverty at all?

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Not that I'm attempting to justify either approach here, not at all. Just to say that it is the government's money, and they can spend it how they choose.

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No Jon, it is NOT the government's money.That YOUR money. And MY money.Tax dollars are the American people's money. And WE get to decide what we do with it through the representatives we elect to office and to the extent that we pay attention to how those representatives vote to spend our money.

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Hell, I'd rather they would spend it on fixing the problems here at home!

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You don't vote.Therefore, you have absolutely NO right to have any opinion whasoever on what our elected officials do with tax funds.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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You want to reduce the number living in poverty by reducing the number living. That sickens me.

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No.I want to reduce the number of people in poverty by reducing the number of additional people added to the world's population, AND by encouraging people to adopt children who are already here.But you didn't actually address my question.Do you seriously believe that because we cannot save all starving children, we shouldn't try to do anything at all to help any of them?Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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I guess you are right, I am a dog, a no good.

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I never said that.I said that if you want the right to an opinion on what our elected officials do with OUR tax dollars, then you are required to participate in our democracy by voting.

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I have no right to an opinion at all. After all, I don't vote (which to you seems the most godly thing any creature on Earth could do given the chance).

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You know, getting all emotional and purposefully exaggerating your opponent's position to the point of misrepresentation only makes you look foolish and childish.You don't have a right to an opinion because you chose to abdicate it by choosing not to vote.As you say, it is your choice, but there are consequences to that choice.You don't participate, you don't get to have an opinion. Or, perhaps more accurately, your opinion doesn't matter.

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I don't vote, but I can still voice my opinion.

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But then that just makes you an obnoxious whiner who complains but refuses to participate in the process he is complaining about.

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A lot of people don't/can't vote, and they still find ways to vioce their opinions; to make their message heard. How did women ever gain the right to vote? They certainly didn't vote for officials that would give it to them. No, they just stated their opinions, in the paper, on the street, and I'm sure they would've done the same in forums just like this if it had been around back then.

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LOL! I've got to hand it to you, Jon. It takes some pretty big cojones to compare your own apathy regarding participation in our democracy to women's suffrage activists.

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There are MANY more ways to voice your opinion and to participate in government than to simply vote. Last year I actively participated in a campaign against cutting funding to higher education.

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Of course, that didn't count, since I never voted.

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Well, perhaps that's a start for you.So, do you understand that it's not "the government's money" but OUR money, and the elected officials do not have the right to spend as they see fit without any reference to or consideration of the wishes of the American people?Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.Edited by schrafinator, : fixed spelling and added a clarification.

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No one has yet addressed what I said, either. If everyone here gets their wish, and the people in developing nations stop reproducing, what will be left of those nations?

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I don't recall anyone, let alone everyone, wishing that people in developing countries would stop reproducing altogether, so that's a strawman.

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C'mon now, your ideas that people in developing countries should just stop having kids are silly.

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Yeah, it is silly, which is why I didn't make that argument.

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I'll get back to answering all of your questions, when you all tell me why only the people in developed countries should be able to have children and further the existance of their society.

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I don't think that.

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And remember, if you adopt them out of that society, and in to your own, it does nothing to further their own society.

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Sure it does, by freeing up more resources for the people who still live in that developing country.

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Because ever since I've opened this thread my opinion's been nothing but attacked. Everyone has been laying into me with both fangs out, and the only people who even partially agree with me have just dissapeared, probably wanting no part in the slamming you've been laying on me!

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Oh whah, wah, whah.If you can't stand the heat...

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Bill Gates is the world's wealthiest man, and he worked his ass off for every penny he's worth!

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That's not true at all.At a certain point in wealth creation, money starts working for you. Through investments, your money earns more money and you don't do any work at all even though you are getting richer and richer.Now, Bill Gates had great ideas and is a great entrepeneur and businessman, but it is just completely false to say that he actually "worked by the sweat of his brow" for every penny.Jon, I'm going to give you some unasked-for advice.There are a lot of pretty basic life things you don't know about yet because you haven't lived in the world long enough to know them.The next time you feel your righteous anger swelling up within you in response to one of these posts that question or criticize your position on a given issue, perhaps you might think about asking questions regarding why people hold the opinions they do. This would possibly help you learn from people who know more about the world simply because we've lived in it longer.Now, before you have yet another swell of righteous indignation, let me say that you are a bright kid but you are inexperienced and ignorant. We were all inexperienced and ignorant at one time, too, so it's not like we don't know how it is.I just think you'd serve yourself better by taking advantage of the wisdom and experience that you have at your disposal here.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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And it takes a LOT of work to get to that point. And having gotten to that point is a reward for the hard and risky business work you've done.

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Yes, but that runs counter to your initial claim, that every penny Gates has is due to the sweat of his brow.Furthermore, if someone is born wealthy, like Gates' kid, they never have to work at all. All they have to do to remain spectauclarly wealthy is to pay the right people to properly manage their portfolio. What is THEIR money a "reward" for?The majority of wealthy people, jon, are not "self made". Those people are rare, and are a part of the mythology of the "American Dream". Most rich people in America are born that way.

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And besides, sweating labour isn't the only kind of work out there. Mental work can be equally as demanding.

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Did you notice that I put the phrase "sweat of his brow" in quotes? That indicated that I was using that phrase euphamistically to mean "earned all his money by actuvely doing work."After he got to a certain point in wealth accumulation, he did not have to work at all to get richer. That's the point.

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When was the last time you started a billion dollar software company? I mean, if it were so easy and you don't do any work at all, why aren't more people starting such businesses?

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LOL! One doesn't "start" a billion dollare software company! Gates started his "startup" like every other startup company; nobody knew from Microsoft back in the early days. Dozens or more of those are founded every month, by people just as knowledgeable and innovative as Gates. Timing and luck are important factors in who makes it big in business and who only makes it OK, or who doesn't make it at all.

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Time and time you've said I am young and ignorrant.

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Well, you are! So was I at your age. There was no possible way I could know what I do now 20 years ago because I hadn't lived in the world long enough to learn them.Some things can only be learned that way, jon.[qyuote]If you ask me, I think it's just a cop-out so you don't really have to address any true problems. Just slap a label on my morals and beliefs and you can sit back and relax.[/quote]...except that I do address the issues you raise.

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Well, my morals and my world experience aren't related.

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LOL! Of course they are, jon. This is true for any thinking person who reflects upon world and personal events.

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I mean, how damn old were you when you first decided murder was wrong? Morals are internal, instinctive, something you feel and know is right.

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That is only partially right.How damn old were you when you decided slavery was wrong? It wasn't all that long ago that many people had no moral problem with slavery.Morals change with cultures, too.

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And, when I grow up and experience the world I will see it your way, eh?

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No, not at all.When you grow up and experience more of the world you will, hopefully, not make as many factual mistakes that are a direct result of your lack of knowledge.Look, it's not a matter of opinion if Gates earned every penny by working for it. He didn't, period. A great deal of his wealth is created without him lifting a finger.I certainly didn't understand that concept when I was your age, so I'm not expecting you to have understood it either.

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This thread isn't about me, it isn't about you, and it isn't about Bill Gates. So, I think we should get back to the topic and perhaps you could explain your solution and how that will not unequally shift the balance of power in the world more than it is. How it won't deprive individuals of their basic human rights, and how it will not add a significant amount of strain on an already stressed-out planet.

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I already answered your questions, jon.

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And remember, if you adopt them out of that society, and in to your own, it does nothing to further their own society.

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If you adopt a baby from one of those countries.

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Yes. Isn't that what you asked about? Didin't you ask:"if you adopt them out of that society"?

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Will you adopt a healthy one, or one dying of some strange incurable disease?

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Well, most diseases that kill children in developing countries are not "strange, incurable" ones, but treatable ones. To say that the two choices are "healthy children" and "children dying of strange incurable diseases" is a strawman.Also, it is highly unlikely that every single one of the healthy children will be adopted out of a country by people in developed nations, so that's another of your strawmen.In addition, freeing up more resources for the remaining people will likely raise the standard of living for the people who are there now and those who follow.

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And if you do adopt a healthy one, and we all followed you and your "wisdom" and adopted babies (adopting the healthy ones), what would be left in the developing countries?

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More money per person to raise their standards of living, so that the children that are subsequently born will be less likely to contract preventable diseases, or starve to death.Now, for the third time, will you please answer the question:So, because we cannot help ALL of the starving children, we shouldn't bother to help reduce the number of them living in poverty at all?Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

Gasby writes: Jon replies:

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You're a dick, and I'll never agree with you or your opinion. No matter how long I "cool down". Hell, I ain't even angy; are you?

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ROTFLMAO!!!!Wow, jon, you do realize that you just confirmed gasby's statement about you, don't you? Especially the part where you stick your bottom lip out and petulantly declare, "I'll never agree with you or your opinion." I can almost hear you stamping your foot.Thanks, that was a great laugh to start my day with. Teenagers are hilarious! I'm sure I acted just as obnoxious as you; I must have been a real dick.LOL!!! Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.Edited by schrafinator, : fixed spelling

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Saying that is like saying senior citizens are easily manipulated.

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Many of them are, and it's through no fault of their own, but because their minds are failing.You have no excuse for your behavior. Well, not much of one. You at least have a choice.

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Now, if you start saying that to the seniors, how many do you think will still keep listening to your opinion, or give a rat's ass what you have to say?

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The thing is, I don't try to lecture seniors (except buzsaw, because he's so wrong about so many things). I ask them questions and try to learn from them.

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I respond as I do because you beat me down and call me ignorant.

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Wah, wah, wah.If you don't want to get your wrist slapped, then don't keep putting it out there unprotected so frequently.I mean, this is a debate board. If you don't want your position to be ripped up, don't put it out there.And you are ignorant. So am I, and so are we all, about many things. The sooner you accept this, the quicker you will learn.

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You attack ME over and over and over and over and over again, and you never attack the issue.

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No, I attack your position over and over and over again. I disagree with you and present facts and explanations for why I disagree. Your job then is to counter with different and/or better facts and explanations.I made it perfectly clear when I was debating and when I was giving you advice.

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And you STILL haven't answered what will happen if we adopt all the children out of poverty!

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That is a strawman, because nobody ever suggested that we adopt ALL the children out of poverty.I don't have to address arguments I never made and that you wished I had, hon.

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And all this crap about getting through to me, as if the moment you explain it, I'll understand and agree with you and believe your solution.

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Once again, you agreeing with me is not my goal.You presenting better arguments that are based upon facts, and also that do not rely upon strawmen, is.

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Once I experience life, I'll just see everything the way you do, won't I? You are all wise, aren't you?

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Stop behaving like a little child.I already told you once in messgar #83 upthread:

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Now, you say it all the time about me being an ignorant unexperienced teenager, which is a constant personal attack.

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No, it's just the truth. It cannot be otherwise, by definition.There's no shame in being inexperienced and ignorant, you know, except if you choose to willfully remain so.

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If only everyone could act in such a grown-up manner

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You mean like calling people "dicks"?Would that be behaving in a grown up manner, would you say?

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I can certainly tell that it's your wish that we would be able to adopt them all in an ideal situation.

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That would be interesting, since I never stated that this is my wish.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.