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Author Topic:   The Gory Details of 'Miracles'
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 123 (373741)
01-02-2007 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by anastasia
01-01-2007 8:43 PM


Miraculous miracles
Incorruptibility
As far as incorruptibility goes, I know very little about any cases of such. You mentioned a couple of cases. One of them was Saint Zita. I don't know much about her, but I did track down a postmortem photo and, although she appears fairly well preserved, she also appears to be in the early stages of genuine putrefaction.
Stigmata
This phenomenon has always interested me, but I don't know enough about it to make any kind of assertion. I'm certain that some people have committed fraud to pass it off as a legitimate phenomenon, but I can't say whether true stigmata has occurred as the result of a divine miracle.
ESP said to be possessed by certain priests.
Again, I'm interested in this subject but couldn't tell you one way or the other how I feel about it. I know that we all have some sort of intuition and I can't explain that currently. Perhaps people with ESP have a very heightened sense of intuition. I'm also fascinated with deja vu, which I associate along the lines of extra sensory perception. I actually had a case of it about a half an hour ago. I also can't explain this phenomenon, however, that's not to say that it can't be rationally explained.
I know that the CIA invested a lot of time with this field of study. Certainly they believed that it was worth the time and money and to tap into it. Of all the "miracles" listed, this one seems to me to be the least miraculous. If it is real, I certainly would ascribe that to God, but only in the sense that we all have abilities and qualities to us that are unique. A miracle is a very, very special event that typically defies the laws of physics-- which of course, is what makes it so memorable and special in the first place.
This is not an attempt to discover whether or not these things can be proved as miracles i.e., supernatural phenomena, but to discuss possible scientific explanations, or whether some event that is unusual in nature could be used by God as a sign.
Incorruptibility could easily be understood scientifically. It would be exceedingly difficult to prove that as a miracle. Some bodies preserve incredibly well after exhumation, while others decay into dust with a few years. There are a lot of factors. The amount of oxygen present, microbials, whether embalming techniques were employed, etc. But if a body remained intact for, say, 1000 years, I would find it incredibly difficult to understand that through science alone.
Stigmata, if legitimate, seems so implausibly coincidental to be explained scientifically, that if it were found conclusive, it would likely certify as a genuine miracle.
Also interested in parallels of the same type in other religions or scientific examples of the same phenomena happening elsewhere.
That could also undermine its integrity though. The more common something is, especially all over the world, the more likely it is a natural phenomenon than a miraculous one.
Eucharistic miracles are cases in where the bread and wine used in Communion are said to have become actual flesh and blood. In some of them, the flesh was examined and found to be human heart tissue, and the blood to be human blood type AB.
Transubstantiation is certainly an interesting topic. If analysis indeed confirmed that the wine literally turned into blood, and the wafer literally turned into flesh, I don't see how any natural phenomenon could resolve that. That certainly would be miraculous.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by anastasia, posted 01-01-2007 8:43 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by limbosis, posted 01-02-2007 4:45 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 20 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 7:19 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 123 (373779)
01-02-2007 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by limbosis
01-02-2007 4:45 PM


Re: a course in miracles
If wafers and wine were turned into flesh and blood, in every church on earth, at a single time and day, which was published worldwide in local newspapers at least a week in advance...that would be a simple miracle.
I think one instance, in one place, at one time of wine and wafer turning to flesh and blood a considerable miracle. I say that only in regards to it being true.
P.S. It would take many, many of those to make up for the crap we endure. I'd expect to see a miracle a day, from now on.
Is that too much to ask?
You're gonna have to ask Him that.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by limbosis, posted 01-02-2007 4:45 PM limbosis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by limbosis, posted 01-02-2007 5:54 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 123 (374046)
01-03-2007 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by anastasia
01-02-2007 7:19 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
Would that be normal for a body of that age?
Oh, wait a minute! A crucial aspect that I missed. She died in 1272. That means in April of this year her corpse will be 734 years old. Thanks for pointing that out. Given the fact that she's only under glass makes her body extremely well preserved given the amount of time and the oxygen saturated environment.
Also, you may look up Bernadette Soubirous or incorruptibles in general for more photos.
Bernadette Soubirous has been dead for 127 years. This is remarkable. You can tell that her caretakers gave her light blush and lipstick and painted her nails, but you can see that she has not decayed.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 7:19 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by RickJB, posted 01-03-2007 3:27 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 37 by anastasia, posted 01-03-2007 4:06 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 123 (374561)
01-04-2007 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by RickJB
01-03-2007 3:27 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
Apparently the face is a wax mask that was added in 1925. Underneath that she ain't going to be looking too pretty.
Well, that certainly adds another dimension to the debate. At the same time, if she really was rotting away underneath the layer of wax, I assume a layer of glycerin would seep through after the cells die. I would expect with or without the wax it would seep through. So she either isn't decaying very rapidly, isn't decaying at all, or her caretakers have removed all of the glycerin.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by RickJB, posted 01-03-2007 3:27 PM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by RickJB, posted 01-05-2007 5:08 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 123 (374564)
01-04-2007 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by anastasia
01-03-2007 4:06 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
How long can a body last in wax? Longer than normal?
I don't know. I was wondering that myself. As far as all of this goes, I'm neither a believer or an unbeliever. I fully believe that God is capable of all of it if He were so inclined. At the same time, I can't say whether this is an elaborate hoax or the real deal.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by anastasia, posted 01-03-2007 4:06 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by anastasia, posted 01-04-2007 8:33 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 123 (374581)
01-04-2007 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by anastasia
01-04-2007 8:33 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
I can't say I believe or don't either. If there are such thing as miracles they will never be proven; that is the same as proving God exists.
Yep... That's pretty much the way it goes. I remember vividly the very first time I met the Spirit. And the description I attempt to give in that meeting may sound coined. To an unbeliever it may sound trite and they probably thought that I only saw what I wanted to see. But, whatever, I know what happened to me. I don't need affirmation from a third party. The event was for me, and me alone. Its up to the third party to either believe my testimony or not.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by anastasia, posted 01-04-2007 8:33 PM anastasia has not replied

  
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