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Author Topic:   The future of marriage
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 31 of 308 (378750)
01-21-2007 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Chiroptera
01-21-2007 4:41 PM


"without giving any reason" Therefore, effectively for no reason.
I'm not proposing to ban divorce, but rather some kind of reform that would no longer allow divorcing on a whim, but rather to require some kind of reason to be given. "Irreconcilable differences" is absolutely meaningless, especially when those "differences" are never required to be stated nor any attempts at reconciling them are to be made, nor any evidence needs to be presented to show that they have in fact been found to be "irreconcilable". As they now stand, divorce laws make it very easy to divorce; create some real requirements to keep people from divorcing on a whim and to make attempts at reconciliation more attractive. If a spouse really does not want to live with that other person anymore, then that spouse could still get a divorce, but only if they really don't want to live with that other person.
More broadly, addressing the divorce issue would need to look into the causes of divorce and addressing those causes. Current divorce laws are just the most visible and obvious problem; the root causes also need to be addressed.
But how likely is it for us to see the "preservation of marriage" advocates to turn to the issue of divorce?
BTW and FWIW, at least the founder of eHarmony.com is trying to get at the root cause of divorce.
Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Chiroptera, posted 01-21-2007 4:41 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Chiroptera, posted 01-21-2007 5:03 PM dwise1 has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 308 (378751)
01-21-2007 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by dwise1
01-21-2007 4:58 PM


quote:
I'm not proposing to ban divorce, but rather some kind of reform that would no longer allow divorcing on a whim, but rather to require some kind of reason to be given.
What "whim"? One or both parties no longer want to be married to each other. That sounds like a perfectly good reason to be divorced. In fact, I can't think of a better one.

But government...is not simply the way we express ourselves collectively but also often the only way we preserve our freedom from private power and its incursions. -- Bill Moyers (quoting John Schwarz)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by dwise1, posted 01-21-2007 4:58 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by dwise1, posted 01-21-2007 5:33 PM Chiroptera has replied

docpotato
Member (Idle past 5077 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 33 of 308 (378757)
01-21-2007 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Hyroglyphx
01-20-2007 2:43 PM


Re: Wow.
I leave them alone. Is it me who is imposing my beliefs on them, or is it them imposing their beliefs on me? Try to remember that its not I who defined marriage.
Yes. You did not define marriage. So why do you have any investment as to what the definition is?
This was established long before your great-great-great-great-great grandfather was a twinkle in his daddy's eye. Therefore, the imposition is all on their side of the table. So who isn't leaving who alone?
Which kind of marriage are you talking about? 'Cause the customs and practices tend to differ from place to place. (I'm told that there were some people who had/have MORE THAN ONE SPOUSE!!!) Oh, and it would seem that you are saying that gay people should not be allowed to be married because they would be disturbing someone's great-great-great-great-great grandfather's daddy's twinkle's conception of marriage. I'm sure this great-great-great-great-great grandfather's daddy's twinkle was a great-great-great-great thinker, but really... there's no need to hold their opinion in such high regard.
Am I not afforded the right to speak for my beliefs?
Oh baby are you ever!
Is this not the age tolerance where we all can believe as we see fit?
We sure can!
If homosexuals want to be together, that's on them. You won't see me flouting and jeering as they walk hand in hand down the street.
How noble!
If they want to establish their own kind of legal union, take it up with the courts. But please don't redefine marriage to suit an agenda.
But what if they just want to call it marriage? Why shouldn't they? After all, we could just re-write the secular laws as to what constitutes marriage and that would not affect your religious marriage at all, eh?
It annoys me that the gay marriage debate is always cast as some sort-of symantical issue. The definitions of words change all the time because language is a fluid, dynamic system. No one complained when faggot stopped meaning a bundle of sticks...
Edited by docpotato, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2007 2:43 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 34 of 308 (378758)
01-21-2007 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by dwise1
01-21-2007 4:36 PM


Re: Attack on Christianity?
quote:
I've heard the national divorce rate to be estimated to be about 50% and the rate in Southern California to be at about 75%.
Actually, that is a misleading, though very well-known, quote.
Most first marriages do not end in divorce.
The divorce rate has pretty much steadily declined since the 1970's.
source
The figure is based on a simple - and flawed - calculation: the annual marriage rate per 1,000 people compared with the annual divorce rate. In 2003, for example, the most recent year for which data is available, there were 7.5 marriages per 1,000 people and 3.8 divorces, according to the National Center for Health Statistics.
But researchers say that this is misleading because the people who are divorcing in any given year are not the same as those who are marrying, and that the statistic is virtually useless in understanding divorce rates. In fact, they say, studies find that the divorce rate in the United States has never reached one in every two marriages, and new research suggests that, with rates now declining, it probably never will.
The method preferred by social scientists in determining the divorce rate is to calculate how many people who have ever married subsequently divorced. Counted that way, the rate has never exceeded about 41 percent, researchers say. Although sharply rising rates in the 1970's led some to project that the number would keep increasing, the rate has instead begun to inch downward.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by dwise1, posted 01-21-2007 4:36 PM dwise1 has not replied

dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 35 of 308 (378759)
01-21-2007 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Chiroptera
01-21-2007 5:03 PM


Yes, "whim". In a moment of anger, without benefit of any cool-off period nor allowing any chance of reconciliation, he/she decides on divorce and calls a lawyer. The juggernaut is set in motion.
Of course, many cases involve slow-cooked discontent over a long period of time, but the in-a-fit-of-anger scenario also plays out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Chiroptera, posted 01-21-2007 5:03 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Chiroptera, posted 01-21-2007 5:49 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 01-21-2007 5:52 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 39 by subbie, posted 01-21-2007 10:51 PM dwise1 has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 308 (378766)
01-21-2007 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by dwise1
01-21-2007 5:33 PM


I still don't see the problem. Someone doesn't want to be married, and so they begin the process of not being married any longer. What is the problem with this?

But government...is not simply the way we express ourselves collectively but also often the only way we preserve our freedom from private power and its incursions. -- Bill Moyers (quoting John Schwarz)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by dwise1, posted 01-21-2007 5:33 PM dwise1 has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 37 of 308 (378769)
01-21-2007 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by dwise1
01-21-2007 5:33 PM


Yes, "whim". In a moment of anger, without benefit of any cool-off period nor allowing any chance of reconciliation, he/she decides on divorce and calls a lawyer.
Yeah, I tell ya, when I get going there's no telling what kind of paperwork I'll file. Once I got a parking ticket and before I knew it, I had registered 2 houses with the National Registry of Historic Places, filed seventeen FOIA requests with the State Department, submitted six patents, and created a corporate entity in the state of Nevada. Why, it's a wonder I'm not divorced already!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by dwise1, posted 01-21-2007 5:33 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by docpotato, posted 01-21-2007 5:58 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 68 by Fosdick, posted 01-24-2007 12:06 PM crashfrog has replied

docpotato
Member (Idle past 5077 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 38 of 308 (378771)
01-21-2007 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by crashfrog
01-21-2007 5:52 PM


You're like some sort-of beaurocratic hulk!
Will you do my taxes if I make you angry enough?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 01-21-2007 5:52 PM crashfrog has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 39 of 308 (378817)
01-21-2007 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by dwise1
01-21-2007 5:33 PM


A whim?
Let me ask you a question. How much personal experience do you have with divorcing people?
I've done hundreds, and never once did anyone come to me and say, "I've got nothing to do this afternoon, the laundry is all caught up and the kids are at camp, so I think I'd like to try that divorce thing out."
I can't swear nobody ever gets divorced "on a whim," but I'm quite certain the numbers are very low. To make it more difficult for everyone to get a divorce because you have your knickers in a twist about the possibility that someone might get a divorce "on a whim" seems idiotic at best, IMHO.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by dwise1, posted 01-21-2007 5:33 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by dwise1, posted 01-22-2007 1:32 AM subbie has replied
 Message 46 by Chiroptera, posted 01-22-2007 7:45 AM subbie has not replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5982 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 40 of 308 (378837)
01-22-2007 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
01-20-2007 12:16 AM


nemesis_juggernaut writes:
Not only are the statistics in the NYT article completely fabricated, but the article dishonestly dedicates itself to the task of proving that marriage is no longer valued by the majority of people."
Not usre if anyone has mentioned this or not...I have seen agenda, and I have seen propoganda, thinly veiled or blatant. This study IMO does not imply anything about the value of marriage. It counts the number of women living without spouse, maybe to evaluate the number of women who are self-supporting, working, in need of assistance, or something positive. More likely the study only focused on women, because the population of women and men per capita varies from place to place, and overall I believe there are more women than men. So, showing that a certain percent of women are living without spouse does not presume the same number of men are. Different stats result for women and men. Maybe they just didnt get around to polling the men yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2007 12:16 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5550 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 41 of 308 (378849)
01-22-2007 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Hyroglyphx
01-21-2007 2:19 PM


Re: Attack on Christianity?
The point is, Jar, that if you open the doors to this, it opens the door to other aberrations.
Double fallacy
First the slippery slope fallacy (Any gay marriage ban would have to stand on its own.)
Second the begging the question fallacy (The whole notion that homosexuality is an aberration is very controversial)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-21-2007 2:19 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 42 of 308 (378856)
01-22-2007 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by subbie
01-21-2007 10:51 PM


Re: A whim?
The "divorce on demand" laws as they currently stand make it too easy to get a divorce, too easy of just one spouse to demand and get that divorce for no reason. Divorce becomes the easy choice, to be taken without even trying to resolve the problems in the marriage. As such, the number of divorces filed must be greater than if they were required to try to reconcile or at least to have a reason.
If anyone spouting rhetorics about wanting to protect marriage is actually serious, then they must turn their attention towards divorce. While some would look to address the root causes, most would undoutedly turn their attention to the most visible aspect, which are the divorce laws.
My personal experience? I had divorce imposed on me unilaterally and for no reason -- if she ever did have a reason, then it's only known to her because she never ever gave one. No warning, no discussion, no recourse. No reason. And she robbed me of $20,000 on the way out. For no reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by subbie, posted 01-21-2007 10:51 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Chiroptera, posted 01-22-2007 7:49 AM dwise1 has replied
 Message 48 by subbie, posted 01-22-2007 9:05 AM dwise1 has not replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3455 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 43 of 308 (378858)
01-22-2007 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Hyroglyphx
01-20-2007 10:57 AM


Re: Fleshing it out
But that's actually a part of my argument, which I forgot to add to my thread. The title is called "51% of women now living without a spouse." The problem is in the wording and I wouldn't hesitate to say that its deliberate. The implication is that everyone reading the article or even seeing the headline will no doubt surmise that they are referring to women who have opted not to marry at all. Lets get real, that's the first thing that's going to pop in somebodies head, and they know that.
Funnliy enough, that was not the first thing that popped into my head. I took "51% of women currently living without a spouse" to mean just that. I immediately (mostly subconsciously) took into account the divorce rate,a guesstimate of those who are separated (whether it be voluntary or forced) from their spouses, lesbians (although many may have answered that they were indeed living with their spouse), women who have not married yet, widows, and those who have chosen not to marry.
I did not interpret it to mean that 51% of women have chosen not to marry and that we are now firmly planted in a new society moving towards the total abolition of marriage. The article alludes to possible shifts in the perception of marriage as "the main institution that organizes people’s lives," and to possible shifts in "social and workplace policies, including the ways government and employers distribute benefits," but that only means that we may no longer be able to assume that someone is, ever was or should be married and that there may come a day when insurance companies finally let us cover those whom we wish to cover on our policies or that hospitals may have to recognize the wishes of a patient regarding disclosure and visitation, not that we are "heralding the dawn of a new age" of marriage becoming an obsolete institution like you suggest in your OP.
You chose to interpret it that way because you, like many others, feel that the institution is under attack and that liberals and homosexuals are heading the vanguard supported by the vilely liberal NYTimes. At least, that is my suspicion.
But instead they manipulate it where it could mean women just not currently living in the same domicile. Well, who would want to read an article about that? No one. So as long as they can put a little spin on it, they can attempt to justify their figures so long as they word it carefully, and yet, they realize that people will automatically assume that its referring to women who have opted not to marry.
I don't see any spin in the statement "51% of women currently living without a spouse." It seems pretty straightforward to me. And the article under the headline supports my interpretation.
My figures derive from the US Census whose only function is to keep statistical figures. They already did the math, I'm simply relaying those tabulated figures for everyone to see in a very clear manner that NYT's distorted and convoluted their own article.
However, the analysis (of US Census figures) and the article, unlike you, took into account not only divorcees, but also women living apart from their spouse whatever the reason and they even say so in plain English for all to see.
LOL! PaulK, lets think about this from a logic point of view. Who wants to read about women that aren't currently living with their spouse? Nobody.
However, that is exactly what the headline says. The news is not the headline.
The blatant assertion is that women are throwing off the archaic shackles of marriage in droves and abandoning traditional values in an attempt to forge a new way of life
No, the assertion is that many women are currently unmarried or living without a spouse. Some women may have consciously chosen never to marry or to wait until they have a stable career and a life of their own before getting married, while others may have divorced or been widowed and decided that they do not need marriage to define them (and guess what, the article adresses this very issue!) and that may indeed be a trend. The article reports on these aspects and quotes sociologists regarding what this might suggest for society as a whole.
Let me ask you something. Do you think its acceptable to add 15 year old girls in that?
Yes, since one can get married at 15 (albeit with parental consent) in many states and, more importantly, that is the bottom end of the age group used by the US Census.
Do you think its acceptable to add widows, who have been married for 60 years until her husband died in that figure?
Yes, because they are not currently living with their spouse.
Do you think its right to include military wives in that figure whose husbands are on deployment?
Yes, because they are not currently living with their spouse and the article does mention them (twice, even!)
The only one's who should be legitimately considered are single women and divorced women who have no aspirations to marry again.
That would be an interesting study, but since the US Census does not ask this question the NYTimes could not have accurately reported on that. Their analysis suggested more women are spending more of their lives outside of a marriage and discussed what that might mean for public policy and personal attitudes, not that most women won't eventually marry or marry again.
Listen to the tone of the article. Its very obvious that they want to make people think that women are abandoning marriage:
" Coupled with the fact that in 2005 married couples became a minority of all American households for the first time, the trend could ultimately shape social and workplace policies, including the ways government and employers distribute benefits.
Several factors are driving the statistical shift. At one end of the age spectrum, women are marrying later or living with unmarried partners more often and for longer periods. At the other end, women are living longer as widows and, after a divorce, are more likely than men to delay remarriage, sometimes delighting in their newfound freedom."
Dude, how do you get "women abandoning marriage" from "Several factors are driving this statistical shift??" According to the US Census (not the NYTimes) married people for the first time became a minority. The NYTimes analysis employed sociologists to help understand why this might be.
And then they try to cover their tracks, sort of, but then lay it all out for us as plain as day:
"In a relatively small number of cases, the living arrangement is temporary, because the husbands are working out of town, are in the military or are institutionalized. But while most women eventually marry, the larger trend is unmistakable."
Ah, yes, there it is.
Yes, there it is. The honesty you say is lacking in the article.
The numbers are there for all to see. The analysis just suggests a couple of reasons why we are seeing the trend we are seeing.
Now let me ask your personal opinion. What is the motivation for such an article?
To report on an analysis of Census figures. The motivation for the analysis is to figure out why unmarried couples became a majority for the first time. Pretty straightforward.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2007 10:57 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-23-2007 11:47 AM Jaderis has replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3455 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 44 of 308 (378859)
01-22-2007 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Hyroglyphx
01-20-2007 12:01 PM


Re: Wow.
I'm going to leave the rest of your post alone for now. I just had one question.
Gay marriage advocates are the same people who look at marriage casually by and large. So, if marriage is really not that big of a deal, then neither is gay marriage, in which case, why are they getting themselves into a tizzy over it?
Could you please support this assertion?
Could you also please show why someone who looks at marriage casually cannot aggressively defend someone else's right to be married?
Not everyone lives in a black and white world NJ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2007 12:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3455 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 45 of 308 (378861)
01-22-2007 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Hyroglyphx
01-20-2007 3:09 PM


Re: Fleshing it out
And then there is this:
"Men also remarry more quickly than women after a divorce."
Hmmmm? But who are they marrying? Women!
Correct, but an inept analysis.
See, one woman and one man get divorced. Statistically, this one man will get married to a new woman quicker than the one woman will get married to a new man. Less time in between marriages lapses and consequently the man spends more time within a marriage than a woman. This also means that at the time of the Census it was more likely for a man to answer that he was living with his spouse (as a percentage of men).
Marriage doesn't take place in a vacuum. And since the average is that the human population is comprised of 52% women and 48% men, that means there couldn't possibly be more married men than there are married. That means this study is completely fallacious, otherwise, the number of unmarried men would outnumber the amount of unmarried women.
Seems to me that you have a comprehension problem. The article stated that since women live longer than men that there are more women who are not married than there are men.
The article also discussed the higher percentage of men who are married, not a higher number of men. Do you not understand percentages and what they represent?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2007 3:09 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

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