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Author Topic:   Is Science a Religion?
Rob 
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Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 117 of 313 (382118)
02-03-2007 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by ringo
02-03-2007 12:01 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Look what you wrote: science excludes all but the physically testable. Testing means asking questions - thats what science does. And when it finds an answer, it asks more questions about the answer.
Religion doesn't do that.
One religion does... When Jesus says that he will manifest himself, we can test it. And when He does, we can then start asking all kinds of questions that science cannot address.
I am speaking here of science as it is claimed to be. but I maintain that it is a false relgion. Real science is the whole picture.
Science (as you see it) can never have the whole answer. That is why an honest scientist will never say that science is truth. It can only be part of the truth. Added context from other disciplines can radically alter one's interpretation.
science does not cover metaphysical ground. But metaphysical ground is a reality. That's what quantum mechanics is all about. A vein of science you and so many others insist on ignoring or dismissing. On that note, the pantheists are way ahead of the curve compared to most Christians and scientists.
So you've just agreed that science is neither metaphysics nor theology.
nice try...
You make it a religion Ringo, by attempting to use it as a shield against God and trying to define 'proof' as something very limited in scope.
There is no greater proof than meeting God personally! Only christianity gives you that. Though you can contact other spirits besides God's, by other methods. But as I asked a friend once when we were discussing spiritism and rare Satan worship cults... "Ok... if your going to believe in spirits, why would you choose to contact satan or his demons, or even risk it?" How stupid is that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 12:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 12:30 PM Rob has replied
 Message 120 by cavediver, posted 02-03-2007 12:44 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 121 by iceage, posted 02-03-2007 12:49 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 123 of 313 (382144)
02-03-2007 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ringo
02-03-2007 12:30 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Ringo:
We can't test it physically and we can't test it repeatably.
Every individual can test it for himself. Do you think all those Christians over the years were lying about their personal relationship with God? I agree that some were...
As for other religions... they don't make such a claim to begin with. they offer all sorts of philosophizing and blind faith claims.
Science doesn't deal in "proof" at all - never mind as "something very limited in scope".
And that is precisely why the new Covenant is a better covenant than just Law... because you can have proof!
Just admit again that you don't want proof.... You prefer to choose mystery; The mystery of Babylon.
You have your reasons...
Do you think Jesus was lying when He said we could know Him? And that some would not taste death, before seeing the kingdom of heaven coming with power?
It has been tested physically since he manifests himself in all of the physical creation and to physical beings, and it has been repeated untold millions of times. And many have died because they refused to deny their claim that Jesus is Lord.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 12:30 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 1:40 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 125 of 313 (382149)
02-03-2007 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by iceage
02-03-2007 12:49 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Sorry but religion cannot lay claim or seek refuge within the realm of Quantum Mechanics.
Tell that to Frijof Capra, Page not found Page not found | Fritjof Capra and John Polkinghorne http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?JohnPolkinghorne
Capra is an unapologetic pntheist and Polkinhorne a Christian.
But your right really, no-one can seek refuge in science. The only place for rest is in God. Even God finds rest in Himself. And then science begins to actually explain some things beside what a penis is. You might find out what it is for, and what it is not for.
The creation was only created to exapnd the spirtual bliss into physical manifestation. But the androids keep refusing the program. They want hell, not heaven. And that's what we get. We just have to admit that we are terribly mistaken.
But we can't have that can we iceage? You know your not wrong, even though you assure me we can't know...
You need to slow down. We've been wrong about a lot of things... the androids that is... You know... created in the image of God?
I emplore you to stop acting like an android, and be Godly, like you know inherently you should be, because his law is writtten upon your heart.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by iceage, posted 02-03-2007 12:49 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by iceage, posted 02-03-2007 2:46 PM Rob has replied
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 3:39 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 128 of 313 (382185)
02-03-2007 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by ringo
02-03-2007 1:40 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
The best way to look for answers is by asking questions, not by jumping to conclusions.
I ain't buying it Ringo... If the purpose for asking questions is to find answers, then what conclusions have you reached that are true? What absolute truth did you discover?
You don't believe in answers. It is jumping to conclusions to you. If you can not know for sure, then you can go on asking questions forever.
Do you need all of the answers before you will accept the conclusion? If so, then you are demanding to have omniscience. You can't have it. We already have a God.
You only ask questions to evade the answers... Because the only thing that matters to you is your agenda. You are looking for the answers you want, not the answers that are available.
Good luck with that. But I'm not going to waste any more time answering endless questions. You don't accept the answers anyway. I already have a three year old...
If you won't risk becoming a fool and believing in something, then you lose the right to believe anything. It's not motivated by intelligent skepticism, but by cynical fear of losing control.
But we are all going to have our control stripped from us anyway. No sense putting off the inevitable.
You procrastinator you!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 1:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 02-03-2007 6:10 PM Rob has replied
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 7:13 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 130 of 313 (382188)
02-03-2007 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by crashfrog
02-03-2007 3:39 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Can you show me where your God's law, or anything at all for that matter, is written on it?
Yes, I can. It is that little voice that tells you it is wrong to steal, lie, fornicate, and be otherwise uncivilized.
Is that all there is to Crash's heart? Just blood and soil? Do you know that that is what the Nazis called humanity? Blood and soil... We are only material, no heart... so we might as well kill it with strict discipline and propaganda. We are what we're programmed with. YOu are what you eat they say... Or as the Bible infers, 'we are what we worship'. 'Those who worship these idols, become like them.'
Obviously I was speaking about the spirit and the soul. About the will and the conscious etc... The heart of the real you. What we keep hidden and buried under absolute gaurd so as not to expose ourselves to hurt by others who have hurt us so deeply in the past. That is prison, not freedom. Tear down the wall...
Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 3:39 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 6:28 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 131 of 313 (382189)
02-03-2007 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by iceage
02-03-2007 2:46 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Furthermore I have no problem admitting I don't know and cannot even know the full nature of reality. I accept the uncertainty and mystery.
It takes humility to say, "I don’t know." On the other hand, "true believers" who paradoxically include humility as part of their religion, are reluctant to admit that they don’t know, and make aggressive proclamations of knowing the truth.
Such self-serving certainty of knowing things you cannot know, opposes humility.
Now were getting somewhere...
Since we're meandering off the topic, would you be willing to discuss this in a great debate setting with me? Not so as to prove you wrong in some public spectacle, but to discuss it frankly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by iceage, posted 02-03-2007 2:46 PM iceage has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 133 of 313 (382194)
02-03-2007 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
02-03-2007 6:10 PM


Re: Ah the old Absolute Truth fiction pops up again.
Rob:
If you can not know for sure, then you can go on asking questions forever.
jar:
Good. You are finally getting it.
You are acting as though that is a conclusion jar... But in defense of infinite questions?????
How can you know for sure that you can't know for sure?
Do you hear yourself, as you constantly, and consistently, contradict yourself?
What you give with one hand, you take away with the other. That is palming the pea (as you so love to project onto others).
It's like Ravi, talking to a shiek in Jeruselem (I think his name is pronounced Dellel?). He was incarcerated in Jeruselem for many crimes, and was one of the founders of Hamas.
Ravi asked him if he disavowed suicide bombing. The sheik replied, 'I am against all innocent killing. All innnocent killing. But every person has the right to defend himself' (paraphrased from my memory).
He had just killed his absolute with sophistry. Let's just say he was playing with himself.
And to finish the great story...
Ravi went on to remind him of the story where Abraham takes Issac up to the mountain, even though the Muslims believe it was Ishmael. The sheik understood. And as the blade was about to fall, God said, 'Stop! I will provide'.
Ravi went on to tell the sheik that until we accept the Son that God provided, we will continue to offer our own sons as a sacrifice to save us.
When the blade was raised to Christ, it did not stop. And he said, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 02-03-2007 6:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by kuresu, posted 02-03-2007 7:04 PM Rob has replied
 Message 137 by jar, posted 02-03-2007 7:06 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 134 of 313 (382196)
02-03-2007 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by crashfrog
02-03-2007 6:28 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Rob:
It is that little voice that tells you it is wrong to steal, lie, fornicate, and be otherwise uncivilized.
Crash:
Lol! No, that little voice is me.
Ok... then who is the other voice who says, "don't listen to him... he's just a crazy fundie!"?
And who is the guy in the middle? The one who has to decide which voice to heed?
You are triune Crash. Three in one, created in the image of your maker.
Crash:
You've been talking to yourself for a very long time, Rob.
You're so right! For a long time I did indeed...33 yrs to be precise. Couldn't understand why I was always in conflict with myself... you know? I wanted to kill one of those voices so I could live in peace and harmony.
But you need to realize that the one voice, is God's voice. Don't kill it! It's your only way home. It's why Jesus said that 'the kingdom of heaven is within'.
Rob:
Obviously I was speaking about the spirit and the soul.
Crash:
Which don't exist.
An absolute statement Crash... shame shame shame on you, you fundie!
You've been a bad boy, but God loves you more than you can imagine. He died for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 6:28 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 6:56 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 140 of 313 (382212)
02-03-2007 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by crashfrog
02-03-2007 6:56 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
I can assure you that I don't. Souls and spirits don't exist. God doesn't exist. The only voice that speaks inside your head is your own, Rob.
So the ideas you're giving me... are just me talking to myself? It's just me? All the ideas in my head are Just me?
So where do ideas of God come from? Or ideas of devils?
Where do the ideas of Adolf Hitler come from?
And how do we have the right to say ours are better than his?
You said 'souls do not exist'... Are you making an absolute statement, or just making a profession of faith?
And who told you that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 6:56 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 9:27 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 141 of 313 (382217)
02-03-2007 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by kuresu
02-03-2007 7:04 PM


Re: Ah the old Absolute Truth fiction pops up again.
Kuresu;
hey rob, just so you know, there's a difference between killing innocent people and killing someone who's trying to destroy you.
no contradiction in his statement.
I was hoping jar might say that, but it's better this way.
D' ol' sheik was palming the pea... you see?
Because killing innocent civilians is the primary tactic of terrorist groups like Hamas, so it is very contrary...
It's suicide bombing laddie, not self defense.
Kuresu:
you need to quit jumping the gun and think a little before you post.
Well, to be truthful... I do it too. Just not today. Today, you are the guest of honor.
So you need to ask yourself a question... 'Do I feel lucky?'
Well... Do ya... Kuresu?
Seriously... it could have been me. But I had to make it worthwhile.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by kuresu, posted 02-03-2007 7:04 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by kuresu, posted 02-03-2007 10:48 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 142 of 313 (382220)
02-03-2007 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
02-03-2007 7:13 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
The "right to believe anything"? Why on God's green @#$%ing earth would I want the "right to believe anything"?
This topic is not about the "right to believe". It's more like the responsibility to figure things out instead of believing.
And you believe... that you have that responsibility?
I have three words for you Ringo...
1.suicide
2.of
3.thought
"But the new rebel is a Skeptic, and will not entirely trust anything. He has no loyalty; therefore he can never be a real revolutionist. And the fact that he doubts everything, really gets in his way when he wants to denounce anything. For all denunciation implies a moral doctrine of some kind, and the modern revolutionist doubts not only the institution he denounces, but also the doctrine by which he denounces it.
Thus he writes one book complaining that imperial oppression insults the purity of women, and then he writes another book (about the sex problem) in which he insults it himself. He curses the Sultan because Christian girls lose their virginity and then curses Mrs. Grundy when they keep it. As a politician, he will cry out that war is a waste of life, and then, as a philosopher, that all life is a waste of time. A man denounces marriage as a lie, and then denounces aristocratic profligates for treating it as a lie. He calls a flag a bauble, and then blames the oppressors of Poland and Ireland because they take away that bauble.
The man of this school goes first to a political meeting, where he complains that savages are treated as if they were beasts; then he takes his hat and umbrella and goes on to a scientific meeting, where he proves that they practically are beasts. In short, the modern revolutionist, being an infinite skeptic, is always engaged in undermining his own mines. In his book on politics he attacks men for trampling on morality; in his book on ethics he attacks morality for trampling on men. Therefore the modern man in revolt has become practically useless for all purposes of revolt. By rebelling against everything he has lost his right to rebel against anything."
(G.K. Chesterton- Orthodoxy/ Chapter title - The Suicide of Thought / 1908)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 7:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 9:09 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 146 of 313 (382231)
02-03-2007 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by ringo
02-03-2007 9:09 PM


Please tell me more...
Ringo:
I told you, it's not about belief. I welcome the responsibility.
I understand completely!
You don't believe in what you're responsible for figuring out...
Suicide of Thought
Dear jar... Did you hear what Ringo said? Now that's palming the pea!
In a way, you're right Ringo... I don't believe you!
As I've said before to several now, you'd serve yourself better by remaining silent.
You're own words condemn you.
I've been there Ringo... You're not alone. That's the only reason I know these things...

Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 9:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 9:41 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 148 of 313 (382235)
02-03-2007 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by ringo
02-03-2007 9:20 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
Ringo:
why are verifiable answers competing with religion here?
Verifiable? And subject to revision?
There was a classic debate between some scientist named Shapiro, against another from Texas A&M. And the one asked Shapiro how science explains origins, and Shapiro said it can't! But give us time..."
And at the beggining of the debate, Shapiro made the comment that science is subject to revision (or something like that).
How convenient! They can claim that it is all about facts, but without the burden that it will still hold true in the future.
Talk about 'palming the pea'. It never ends with you guys...
It's true, but it;s not true. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 9:20 PM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 9:43 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 151 of 313 (382239)
02-03-2007 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by crashfrog
02-03-2007 9:27 PM


Re: Science has less questions and less answers
I don't need to have someone tell me what is obvious.
That is precisely why you know that there is a God.
And that is why you are so offended by my reminding you that you have fallen far. Because it is so obvious that homosexuality is wrong. It is so base and fudamental, that it seems unfair for me to pull out that rabbit, at the expense of the sophisticated sophistry that others have fed you on the matter. And you have adopted their spells as your own. Our ideas are not our own. We can create nothing! We can only reflect what is, through our exceptionally individual and unique lenses.
The knowledge of God is the most obvous thing in life.
Romans 1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 9:27 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 10:10 PM Rob has replied
 Message 168 by ReverendDG, posted 02-04-2007 6:12 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 153 of 313 (382241)
02-03-2007 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by ringo
02-03-2007 9:41 PM


Re: Please tell me more...
So you believe nothing... except that you actually believe nothing!
That's what you've figured out?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 9:41 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 9:57 PM Rob has replied

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