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Author Topic:   Abortion - Moments of (Mis)Conception
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 99 of 178 (390079)
03-18-2007 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by ICANT
03-18-2007 2:05 AM


how is this pain any different?
When I googled "alien abduction support group", I got over 400,000 hits.
There are thousands and thousands of people in the US who are experiencing great pain and suffering because they believe that they have been abducted by aliens. Many of them believe they have been experimented upon, often sexually, have had implants inserted into their bodies, etc.
Many of them seek out support groups and thrapists to help them deal with this trauma. There are whole supportive online and real life communities built around this phenomena.
Now, I am not saying that the women who experience pain and guilt about having abortions are making up their experiences. My point is that, just like the support community that has been built up around alien abduction, the PASS support community has often encouraged and contributed to the pain and emotional stress of women, not alleviated it.
We must not discount the very real and very strong influence that group and peer pressure can have on individuals. "Support groups" and even therapists can easily encourage guilt, regret, and depression by telling the woman that she was wrong to do what she did. In other words, they encourage her to feel worse and worse.
It is quite socially acceptable to be wracked with guilt about having an abortion, also. By contrast, it is not considered "normal" to have had an abortion and feel positive about the experience.
Therefore, by having emotional trauma, women can be accepted into a group. They receive sympathy and attention.
Lastly, the largest longitudinal study ever done on this subject showed that the single biggest determinant of a woman's mental state after an abortion is her mental state before an abortion.
Unstable people (big surprise!) tend to be unstable, regardless of if they get abortions or not.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ICANT, posted 03-18-2007 2:05 AM ICANT has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 103 of 178 (390176)
03-19-2007 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by ICANT
03-18-2007 11:41 PM


Re: Re-Pain
quote:
But I am also FOR helping all those millions of women who think they are suffering because of an ab. It makes no difference if it is real, self-inflicted, imaginary, or crammed down their throats by Fanatics of any kind, anti-abortion or pro-choice.
1) Please show data that indicates that "millions" of women claim to suffer from PASS. All of the data I have indicates that if it even exists, it is extremely rare.
2) Nowhere in this thread have any of us said that we are not interested in helping women who suffer.
Our point is that the best way to help them is to not encourage them to feel worse and worse. The best way to help them is to support them in their decision.
Telling them that "You murdered your baby" is adding to their suffering.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ICANT, posted 03-18-2007 11:41 PM ICANT has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 104 of 178 (390177)
03-19-2007 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by ICANT
03-18-2007 11:41 PM


Re: Re-Pain
quote:
I am totally against abortion for any purpose to me it is murder no different than me shooting you with my pistol,
So, when does an egg and a sperm become a full human being?
Or, are eggs and sperm also fully human?
And, I am very interested in your thoughts on my posts to you, specifically #99 and #98.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ICANT, posted 03-18-2007 11:41 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 10:35 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 108 of 178 (390183)
03-19-2007 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by riVeRraT
03-19-2007 8:15 AM


quote:
When did I ever accuse anyone of being a slut?
You don't do so directly.
However, the language of blame and guilt that pervades your posts indicates that you believe that women who consent to sex and who then get pregnant deserve to pay the consequences.
Furthermore, you have indicated that women who don't consent (are raped) are not "guilty" of consenting, therefore should not be forced to suffer the consequences if they get pregnant.
So, you are saying, in essence, "All of you women who willingly have sex (sluts) should be forced to carry a fetus to term and give birth since you accidentally get pregnant. If you hadn't opened your legs, you wouldn't have gotten pregnant, but you did, so now you'll have to pay, won't you?"
Your position is all about blaming the woman for consenting to sex, rat.
That is just a more polite way of calling her a slut.

'Explanations like "God won't be tested by scientific studies" but local yokels can figure it out just by staying aware of what's going on have no rational basis whatsoever.' -Percy
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool."- Richard Feynman
"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders
"I haven't studied the theory of evolution much because I disagree 100%
with its claims."--ICDESIGN

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by riVeRraT, posted 03-19-2007 8:15 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by riVeRraT, posted 03-20-2007 9:27 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 109 of 178 (390184)
03-19-2007 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by riVeRraT
03-19-2007 8:27 AM


Re: Re-Abortion
quote:
It is life, and it does matter.
...except if the pregnant woman had been raped. Then that "life" inside of her doesn't matter at all, right?
What about all of the "life" that fails to implant in the uterus and is flushed down the toilet with the tampon? Does that life matter?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by riVeRraT, posted 03-19-2007 8:27 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 112 of 178 (390190)
03-19-2007 9:56 AM


more stories for ICANT and Rat
From Page not found - Welcome to I’m Not Sorry I'm Not Sorry . Net
In particular, rat, please note Mollie's story and the difficulty she had with access to birth control.
Michaela's Story
Some twenty-five years ago I was a medical physicist in a Western-staffed hospital in the Middle East. A single woman in a country where single women are expected”required”to live an outwardly celibate life. Of course I had a boyfriend, another ex-pat like myself. My mother in the UK became ill with a rare, progressive, incurable neurological disease. A widow for many years, I was her only child. The policies of the country I lived in discouraged “unnecessary” family visits, but I was fortunate in that in my professional capacity I had met the head of the secret police for the region--in fact I had treated his wife. I put my dilemma to him and my mother was granted an extended visitor’s visa so that she could live with me. I was allocated “family accommodation”--3 beds, 2 reception, 2 bathrooms--and I met my mother at the airport. My accommodation was converted to comfortably house myself, my mother and a young Sri Lankan woman hired to care for my mother. We were very contented. My mother’s deterioration slowed, and the expense of hiring Kamalini was covered by my mother’s pension. I was no longer distracted from my work by worry about her condition, and she felt secure and cared for. Time continued, mother’s condition deteriorated. A friend of Kamalini, who worked as a housekeeper in a big hotel, was paid to relieve Kamalini two days a week. One day a week, my mother spent in the hospital’s neurological unit.
Then I got pregnant. A weekend away with my boyfriend, a couple of bottles of champagne, bbq-ed chicken under the palm trees--who knows what contributed to the failure of my birth control. I did not want a child. I have never wanted children. As a single woman in that particular country, I could not keep my job and give birth. If my pregnancy were to be revealed, I would be imprisoned and then deported. If I wished to continue the pregnancy, I would have to resign from my job and return to the UK in the middle of the European winter with a disoriented 70-year-old who needed, by now, virtually 24-hour heavy care. Yes, I could indeed have continued my pregnancy--but at what cost to my mother? Alone, pregnant, unemployed, it would have been a physical and financial impossibility to provide the care my mother required. I, of course, having not worked in the UK for a lengthy period, would have been ineligible for maternity benefits and unemployment pay. My mother’s pension would have been taken to pay towards her care in some anonymous institution, and what would have happened to pregnant me I do not know. The scenario was too depressing to contemplate.
The decision was easy. I took a long weekend off. I flew to the UK on Thursday, had an abortion on Friday. Spent Saturday shopping, Sunday visiting a friend, gossiping, eating, drinking, and flew back on Monday. I was back at work that evening. If I had not had my mother to think about, I would have made exactly the same decision. With my mother to consider, what other option was there? Thank goodness I was able to afford travel to my home country and have an abortion. Twenty-five years on - still no children and still no regrets. There is no need for either.
Mollie's Story
I always knew I didn't want to have children. I stopped worrying years ago about whether this made me abnormal, or selfish -- it doesn't. Some people want children and some people just don't, and I'm one who just doesn't.
Consequently, I've always used birth control too. I guess that's one of the things that gets me about the pro-lifers: so many I've spoken to seem to think that women who get pregnant always get pregnant because they're lazy or careless. I wasn't. I always took birth control very seriously and usually used two methods at once; I've even looked into being sterilized but I always get the same response: you're unmarried and childless, so no. Ironically, when I was 18 and went to my hometown OB/GYN for the pill I was told virtually the same thing: you're unmarried, so no; luckily the campus womens' clinic was more concerned about my health than condemning me morally.
I was 31 when I discovered I was pregnant. It was a shock, to say the least: as I was saying, I was always really careful and I was always told that because of an auto-immune disorder I have it would be very difficult for me to become pregnant even intentionally.
It took a while for me to even figure it out: the idea that I could get pregnant even though I was cautious with the birth control, and likely next to infertile, seemed impossible. I'd missed my period but that wasn't unusual with my auto-immune problem. It was the so-called morning sickness that made me realize what was happening.
Suddenly I could no longer be near food at all. Even walking through the grocery would make me so nauseated I couldn't out of there fast enough. Driving by a burger chain and smelling the food I'd have to pull over until the waves of nausea passed. I was teaching at a private two-year college at the time and just getting through my classes every day was wearing me down badly. A home pregnancy test soon confirmed the impossible, and I was on the hunt for abortion service providers.
I was living in a rural Appalachian town at the time, and the closest abortion provider I could find was about seventy miles away. I had to go once for the pregnancy test and other bloodwork, and to be counseled (as required by state law) as to the alternatives to abortion (a complete waste of my time and the counselor's if you ask me), and to make an appointment for the actual abortion.
The earliest they could get me in was two weeks from then because they were just that busy; they could only afford the extra security they needed on days they performed abortions two days a week, and with that, and this clinic being one of the very few in the area that would perform abortions, just getting an appointment for one was a challenge.
After two more weeks of vomiting when near any food apart from soda crackers and Cheerios, the time for the appointment came at last. I drove myself to the clinic and my partner and I sat in the parking lot for thirty minutes, awaiting our turn to be escorted inside by armed guards. All the while pro-lifers circled the parking lot, praying the rosary and yelling at the girls and women arriving at the clinic. I smiled and waved at them, but it struck me how many seemed so self-satisfied by what they were doing: terrorizing young women who were sick, frightened, and making a choice no one makes lightly.
It took a long time, mostly because of the wait. There were perhaps fifty other girls there that day, most very young, I and a Saudi woman of 28 were the oldest women there by far. The worst part, I think, was the waiting. First you waited in your car until a guard could escort you inside. Then we got to wait downstairs for a while in a large waiting room all together, but as your time got closer you were taken upstairs to wait and I had to wait alone while my partner stayed downstairs as men weren't allowed on the second floor (except when escorted by a staffer).
They'd told me to take four ibuprofin tablets before I got there that morning and to try to have a breakfast -- I got the tablets down okay but the breakfast was out of the question. I'd arrived at 7 and at 1:00 the doctor was finally ready for me. My partner was brought upstairs to sit with me and so as I was on the table, he was next to me smiling sweetly at me the whole time, one hand over my heart and the other holding my hand.
It was uncomfortable, but it didn't hurt. There was some pinching as my cervix was numbed, then some strange sucking feelings during the abortion itself, but that was it. When it was over they escorted him downstairs again and the nurse took my arm and walked down the hall with me to the "recovery room", a dimly lit lounge with plush recliners and heating pads for us. I was given my first dose of antibiotic there, and a glass of water. As I relaxed in my recliner, cramps set in, but they weren't really any worse than my normal period cramps.
After about forty minutes a nurse checked me and decided I could leave if I wished. I went downstairs and checked out. By now the protesters were gone--someone told me they always left about 9 to go to the other clinic in town and harass women there.
I drove myself home, and crawled into bed with another dose of ibuprofin and some welcome snuggling from my partner and slept through the rest of the afternoon. I woke up about 7 that night feeling better than I'd felt in weeks.
The bleeding lasted about four days, like a normal period except I only had cramps about the first 24 hours; the nausea was gone almost immediately.
We went out for dinner that night to celebrate, and now, two years later, I can honestly say I've never felt the slightest ounce of regret and I doubt I ever will. I did what was right for me and my partner, and we're still together, still happy, and still child-free.
I'm not sorry: I've nothing to be sorry for.
Nancy's Story
In 1980, I had an abortion when I was 23 years old and already the single mother of a 3 year old son. I was four weeks pregnant by a man I loved who told me he wasn't ready to be a father.
Six months before, I'd returned to college at Cornell University in Ithaca, NY to finish the BA I'd started at Oberlin College in the early 1970s before I dropped out and ended up having a child. I was living on welfare/AFDC at the time and scholarships; the last thing I needed was to have another child. I wasn't ready to be the single mother of two children which was why I made the decision I did. I have never regretted my decision. In fact, the doctor who performed my abortion actually told me during the procedure that he respected my decision and my clear-eyed strength and determination to be a good mother to the one child I already had.
I went on to finish my degree in anthropology with distinction in all subjects. I raised my son mostly alone; he is now grown and in college in New York City. I had a successful career as a publishing professional for many years and also earned my M.A. in writing. Several of my short stories have been published. I would never have been able to have the rich life I've had and help my son as much as I have if I'd been the single mother of two children.
Parva's Story
I am a 33 year old professional Canadian woman and I’ve had two abortions. The first time I had an abortion, I was 29, and it was all due to my own stupidity of having unprotected sex. My boyfriend at the time was passionately pro-life and he claimed that he was devastated by my decision. We had already broken up by the time I found out about my pregnancy, and while I wasn’t so political about the abortion issue at the time, his accusations that I had done something “immoral” still managed to crack me up. I never saw him again.
The second time I was 31, and it was because my current boyfriend & I were trying the natural rhythm method, which failed. We have since become more aggressive and cautious about birth control. My boyfriend is extremely supportive, and is a strong proponent of women’s rights. He does not want children either, and so as a couple, we are in complete agreement on the whole issue. My boyfriend is even willing to have a vasectomy but it is me who wants him to wait “just in case” his feelings change.
I must say though that both times I did feel an irrational sense of shame - mainly because abortion is such a politicized issue, and when you find yourself facing an unplanned pregnancy, you are inevitably filled with complex emotions. You view yourself through the lens of a society that still treats an unplanned pregnancy as the woman’s fault. Dirty words like slut are still used to attack the character of women who are sexually active, while it is considered a man’s natural right and privilege to enjoy sex with as many women as possible. This sad double standard can often create self-doubt and shame in the mind of even the most self-assured and independent woman! So yes, I did feel foolish and vulnerable both times. But I was able to outgrow these emotions, because in the end rational thought prevailed.
I feel so sorry for American women, because abortion is so much harder to get in the US than it is here in Canada. My own experience was great. Doctors and nurses were very professional and helpful. There was no ridiculous “are-you-really-really-sure-you-want-to-murder-your-baby” waiting period, and the procedure is even paid for by the government! I just hope that American women will take the act of voting seriously because they do have control over the kind of leaders who get elected.
I am very glad that I had those abortions. Each time, my decision was a no-brainer, and I have never once regretted it. Just because I do not view abortion as a moral issue does not imply that I am a heartless person. Sure, I’m extremely focused on my career, and have never had a desire to be a parent, but that hardly makes me callous or selfish. Different, perhaps, from the average woman portrayed in the media, who is apparently waiting for a man to put a ring on her finger and can’t wait to have lots of babies! My boyfriend and I have no desire to become husband and wife, we value each other’s independence, and are each other’s best friend.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 117 of 178 (390207)
03-19-2007 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by ICANT
03-19-2007 10:35 AM


Re: Re-Pain
quote:
I understand it to be when the egg and sperm have united.
Over half of all fertilized eggs fail to implant in the woman's uterus and are expelled from her body during menstruation.
According to you, those are full-fledged human beings that are being flushed down the toilet with discarded tampons.
Can you please explain your position on what to do about all of these human beings that fail to implant?
In addition, there are ectopic pregnancies. If an ectopic pregnancy is allowed to continue, the woman will, for sure, suffer horrible pain and die. In addition, the full-fledged human you claim is living inside of her will also die.
Also, there are pregnancies where there is something very wrong with the fetus, such as having no brain. There is no chance that such a baby will survive after birth.
Can you please explain your justification for denying abortion in these cases?
So, your daughter or daughter-in-law is nothing more than a grandchild growing machine to you?
Frankly, who cares what you want?
quote:
nator I do not care if they had never given me a grandson or granddaughter.
OK, now I am confused.
I thought that you were dismayed because this person aborted the grandchild you never got to hold? Isn't that what you wrote in a previous message?
Now you are saying that you don't care about having grandchildren.
Please explain this discrepancy in your position so that I might understand.
quote:
But later they did give me a beautiful granddaughter who is now 28 years old. Because of her mother's experience she will never marry.
I fail to understand why this is relevant.
It appears as though your daugher or daughter in law had a child when she was ready for one and desired one. Which is exactly the point.
It seems like she had an abortion becasue she wasn't ready to have children and did not want the upheaval and cost to her health and life that carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth to it would entail.
Later, when she was ready, she had a child that was very much wanted.
Am I right?
And you DID get to "hold a grandchild", so I don't know what you were complaining about before.
What does your grandaughter's decision to never marry have to do with abortion, anyway?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 10:35 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 12:24 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 118 of 178 (390208)
03-19-2007 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by ICANT
03-19-2007 10:35 AM


Re: Re-Pain
quote:
As far as post 99 if they need help whether it is real or imaginary they should receive it. If they are convinced they have a problem they do. Whether I believe it or not.
But "helping" a person who thinks they have been raped by an alien is not to tell them "Yes, everything you went through really happened and you should feel awful and devastated!"
Helping such a person would be to explore why it is that they are deluded, not feed their delusion.
Similarly, "helping" people who have had abortions, in some cases, is not to tell them "You murdered your baby and you are right to feel depressed and guilty and suicidal becasue you sinned against God and you better hope He forgives you or you're going to Hell."
Helping such a person would be to support them in their decision.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 10:35 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 11:50 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 122 of 178 (390214)
03-19-2007 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by ICANT
03-19-2007 11:47 AM


Re: Re-Pain
quote:
I realize there are people that an ab would not bother them in any way but there are others that it will tear their insides out.
Then the second person shouldn't have an abortion if it isn't right for them.
So, tell me, as a pastor, what are you doing to help prevent the need for abortion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 11:47 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 12:58 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 144 of 178 (390258)
03-19-2007 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ICANT
03-19-2007 12:24 PM


Re: Re-Pain
Can you please explain your justification for denying abortion in these cases?
quote:
If it is justified does that make it right?
You said that all abortion is murder, and you also said that when egg and sperm join, a full-fledged human being exists.
I am simply throwing specific cases at you to see how you fit them into your position that every single case of abortion is murder.
Over half of all fertilized eggs fail to implant in the woman's uterus and are expelled from her body during menstruation.
According to you, those are full-fledged human beings that are being flushed down the toilet with discarded tampons.
Can you please explain your position on what to do about all of these human beings that fail to implant?
quote:
As far as I am concerned they go to be with God.
Would you advocate for the collection of women's menstrual fluid if there is any chance that those full-fledged human beings could be saved and implanted into another uterus? I am sure that the technology could be developed to do so.
If not, why not?
At the very least, shouldn't they be searched for and given proper burials, since they are full-fledged human beings?
If not, why not?
Now, you pretty much avoided dealing with these specific cases.
How do the following scenarios fit into your "abortion is always murder" stance?
Please be specific.
In addition, there are ectopic pregnancies. If an ectopic pregnancy is allowed to continue, the woman will, for sure, suffer horrible pain and die. In addition, the full-fledged human you claim is living inside of her will also die.
Also, there are pregnancies where there is something very wrong with the fetus, such as having no brain. There is no chance that such a baby will survive after birth.
quote:
By the way I don't have the job of denying or approving abortions. They are a fact of life. I think our court system took care of that.
But if abortions really are murder, as you say they are, then shouldn't they be prosecuted as such?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 12:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 3:46 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 147 of 178 (390271)
03-19-2007 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by ICANT
03-19-2007 3:46 PM


Re: Re-Pain
Your position is inconsistent, ICANT.
If you truly believe that abortion is murder, every single time, but at the same time you say you are not anti-abortion, then doesn't that mean that you are sort of "pro-murder"? Or maybe merely neutral about murder?
quote:
It is not my job to determine if an abortion is warranted or not I am not a doctor, a judge or deity.
Or a pregnant woman.
See, don't you think that the woman who's body is housing the pregnancy is the person who should have the final say about if an abortion is warranted or not?
It is very telling that you left out of your list of people who can determine if an abortion is warranted the person who's life will be impacted the most by carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth.
It is a serious, horrible thing to accuse a person of murder, ICANT.
That is exactly what you are doing when you say that abortion is always murder. You are accusing millions of women and girls of committing premeditated murder.
But anyway, wait, now I am confused.
According to you, abortion is NEVER warranted. It is ALWAYS murder, regardless of what a judge or a doctor says (it is irrelevant what the woman says, apparently)
Why are you all of a sudden saying that it's not your place to judge?
Saying it is ALWAYS murder isjudging! It is the essence of judging, in fact.
If a woman gets an abortion, you judge her to be a murderer. End of story.
right?
And you are still avoiding dealing with my specific cases and how they fit into your position of "abortion is always murder.
Can you please explain why you believe that aborting a fetus without a brain which will die when it is born is murder.
Can you please explain how removing an ectopic pregnancy from the fallopian tube of a woman is murder?
Would you advocate for the collection of women's menstrual fluid
quote:
I don't think that would be feasible because of time involved.
Let's say that it was shown to be feasable and didn't take much time.
Would you advocate for this to happen?
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
Topic concerns when life begins.

Take comments to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 3:46 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 4:50 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 150 of 178 (390277)
03-19-2007 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by ICANT
03-19-2007 4:25 PM


Re: Abortion
quote:
Are you telling me that abstinence will not work it people practice it?
LOL!
The point is, people don't practice abstinence.
They never have, ICANT.
Seriously, how much reading have you done on effective social policies that reduce unintended pregnancy?
"Abstinence-only" sex education actually results in MORE irresponsible sexual behaviors in teens and young adults. Kids who go through those programs take a year or two longer to have premarital sex, and when they do, they are less likely to use contraception, and are therefore MORE likely to get pregnant/get someone pregnant unintentionally.
So, are you actually interested in reducing the need for abortion in ways that are shown to work, or are you more interested in perpetuating ineffective methods that result in MORE abortion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 4:25 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-19-2007 7:06 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 155 of 178 (390286)
03-19-2007 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ICANT
03-19-2007 4:50 PM


Re: Re-Pain
quote:
So I will expand, it does not make any difference whether that life is a fetus or a teenager or a 90 year old.
OK, so can we put you on record as saying that a woman who aborts a fetus that is growing in her fallopian tube is mudering that fetus?
Can we put you on record as saying that a woman who aborts a fetus that lacks a brain and will die as soon as it is born is murdering that fetus?
It is a serious, horrible thing to accuse a person of murder, ICANT.
quote:
I accuse no one because our court system and congress has told everyone that it is OK. I only state my personal belief concerning taking the life of another human being.
What kind of nonsense are you spouting here?
YOU, personally, are accusing millions of women who have gotten abortions of the crime of premeditated murder, regardless of what the law says, aren't you?
You clearly disagree with the law in this matter, so YOU are judging these women and girls to be murderers.
I mean, seriously, if YOU, personally believe abortion to be murder, the YOU, personally must believe that the people who murdered them are, in fact, murderers.
It can't be any other way and still make sense.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
Topic concerns when life begins.

Take comments to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 4:50 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 5:40 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 160 of 178 (390372)
03-19-2007 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by ICANT
03-19-2007 5:40 PM


Re: Re-Pain
OK, so can we put you on record as saying that a woman who aborts a fetus that is growing in her fallopian tube is mudering that fetus?
quote:
You can put me on record as saying I believe that taking a human life is murder I don't care if it is a fetus, small child, teenager, adult even if state, doctor, or individual administered, I do not know how to say it any plainer that that.
How about, "Yes"? That's simpler yet.
OK, I will consider you someone who thinks that a woman who aborts a fetus that is guaranteed to kill her is a murderer.
I will also consider you someone who thinks that a woman who aborts a fetus that doesn't have a brain and will for sure die shortly after being born is a murderer.
That is a completely heartless position that is irrelevant to the real world situations that some women find themselves in.
And you say you want to counsel them? Poor women.
I mean, seriously, if YOU, personally believe abortion to be murder, the YOU, personally must believe that the people who murdered them are, in fact, murderers.
quote:
Do I believe a woman having an abortion is a murderer? I believe she is consenting to it and will have to answer to herself and God for it. The person performing the abortion in my view would be committing murder.
OK, so you think that the women and physicians are murderers.
Can you please explain how in the world this is not you passing down a terrible personal judgement upon them?
I mean, seriously, ICANT. I know you really WANT to not be judgemental, becasue you aren't supposed to be. But you simply cannot logically believe that all women and doctors who consent to and perform abortions are guilty of cold-blooded murder and NOT be judging them!
You are very much judging them. Very, very much.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
Topic concerns when life begins.

Take comments to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 5:40 PM ICANT has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 164 of 178 (390432)
03-20-2007 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by riVeRraT
03-20-2007 9:27 AM


quote:
Life is beautiful. Having children is a blessing, not a consequence.
That is merely your personal opinion and is a trribly self-righteous and simplistic proclamation.
Clearly, the million or so women and girls who get abortions every year don't think the same as you about those particular pregnancies, do they?
quote:
Woman who consent to intercourse, and get pregnant, are not "getting blamed" That's just BS. It's just nature doing it's thing.
Look rat, moralistic guilt and blame shout from every message you post.
I see it. Brenna sees it. Asgara sees it. Maybe that's because it is there, in your posts, plain as day.
quote:
You guys are the ones with the interpretation problem, and name calling. Your just liars in other words.
OK, then, answer this question.
Does your approval of ending life stem from if a woman consents to sex or if she was forced?
Why is ending life OK in one instance and not OK in another?
It has to do with a woman consenting to sex without intending to get pregnant, right?
This is what you have said repeatedly, isn't it?
Well then, what are some words that can be used to describe women who want to have sex for pleasure only?
Slut.
Easy.
Loose.
Whore.
Tramp.
Immoral.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
Topic concerns when life begins.

Take comments to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by riVeRraT, posted 03-20-2007 9:27 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by riVeRraT, posted 03-21-2007 11:24 AM nator has not replied

  
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