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Author | Topic: Adam was created on the 3rd day | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
You didn't answer my question. What is your evidence that Genesis 2 is an earlier account than Genesis 1?
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Gee buz I thought that I did. In fact I'm pretty sure that if you read Message 60 there is alot in there.
The differences are based on style, the words used, the material included, what GOD is called. The J and E texts seem to be the most primitive of the tales. As I said, the God of Genesis 2 is entirely different than the God of Genesis 1, He is far more like the other Gods of the folk that the proto-Hebrews were living among and who likely influenced the Hebrew stories and myths. But if you will look in Message 60 I think I included the approximate dates for the various documents that became the Torah. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:No that's not what I'm saying. The author's didn't document anything. They weren't there. What I'm saying is that when God inspired the timeline to be written, it did not put Adam's creation on day 3, which does invalidate your theory. The Garden of Eden story was not a timeline. As I've said before, you've provded good material for a sermon, but this is a debate forum, not a forum for presenting sermons. Again, what in Genesis 1 or 2 supports your idea that Adam existed on day 3 and please explain how? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2793 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
quote: arach writes:
except jacob. oh, and moses. and Adam, and Eve, and Abram, and Aaron, and Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel ... oh, and various prophets ... Edited by doctrbill, : Additions and Corrections Theology is the science of Dominion. - - - My God is your god's Boss - - -
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Juraikken Member (Idle past 6216 days) Posts: 82 From: Winnetka, CA Joined: |
i am replying to the first post in this thread.
Gen 2:4 states how this chapter will start to talk about the generations of the world. when this says "in the day" it is talking about when God put Adam in the garden. check it "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, and ever plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground." thats an entire sentence. this is like me saying: "i go to my friends house to hang out, when i went there we started off playing DBZ Budokai, then we ate his moms cooking, then we played some more and finally we went to bed." you see how the first thing i said summarized my entire sentence? well if we look at the chapter in the bible that part summarized the topic of the chapter! keep in mind again that there were no punctuation marks in the hebrew text so it really should say this "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created in the day the Lord God made the earth and the heavens and ever plant of the field before it was in the earth and every herb of the field before it grew for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth and there was not a man to till the ground" now your an english major lets say, and you need to fix this sentence, without being picky where would you put periods and commas? probably a colon after the first "created" then that would mean that what follows is talking about what happens on earth after teh creation. hm?
quote: how could there be no plants when God clearly says that AND EVERY PLANT OF THE FIELD BEFORE IT WAS IN THE EARTH? just because it didnt rain doesnt mean there was no plants, the mist that came FROM The ground made the plants water. it wasnt only solid ground because God divided the waters, meaning there was WATER and LAND mixed together.
quote: it didnt rain, rain doesnt come from the earth it comes from the sky.and no plants were already created as says verse 2:5 quote: *buzzing sound* wrong again, god planted the garden of EDEN, only the garden, he had already created the earth with plants and animals THEN he made the garden of EDEN, an isolated incident on earth. its not the first vegetation, its the LAST basically cuz God made everything THEN the garden there were no contradictions to begin with you made more contradictions lol heres how the real order goes 1. Heaven and Earth formed2. LIGHT was created (different from sunlight) 3. divided darkness from light (darkness not created, very important point) 4. Day and night made: FIRST DAY finished 5. Divided waters from the sky (now two sets of waters) 6. SECOND DAY finished 7. brought dry land from the water up and land appeared with the waters BELOW the firmament 8. Grass, Herbs, trees created 9. THIRD DAY finished 10. Created the Sun and the Moon and the stars (after earth was created, completely different than astronomical evidence) 11. FOURTH DAY finished 12. water dwelled creatures created, birds in the sky were created. 13. FIFTH DAY finished 14. Cattle, creeping things, beasts of the earth, land dwellers created. 15 Man was created (Adam). Then created Eve (Genesis one is about creation not the troubles in the Garden of Eden) 16. SIXTH DAY finished 17. God rests and puts Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Genesis 2 recaps the creation in a sentence and explains the drama in the Garden of Eden.
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Juraikken Member (Idle past 6216 days) Posts: 82 From: Winnetka, CA Joined: |
very good point. how did Moses see God? the burning bush doesnt count because God isnt a bush. how did Aaron see God?
please explain to me every account that saw God, his ACTUAL form, not something that spoke to them through God.
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2793 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
Juraikken writes: how did Moses see God? You tell me. I am merely sharing what I see in the Bible.
how did Aaron see God? You tell me. I am merely sharing what I see in the Bible.
please explain to me every account that saw God, his ACTUAL form, not something that spoke to them through God. No thanks. If you don't know what the scripture says on this subject, or you think there's some reason to doubt what it says, then tell us what you think it should say. Theology is the science of Dominion. - - - My God is your god's Boss - - -
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Juraikken Member (Idle past 6216 days) Posts: 82 From: Winnetka, CA Joined: |
doctrbill writes: You tell me. I am merely sharing what I see in the Bible. lol i know, but what did John mean when he said "no one hath seen God"? did he mean in his ACTUAL heavenly form or in a form of divination? like a burning bush, or a lion, or whatever.
doctrbill writes: No thanks. If you don't know what the scripture says on this subject, or you think there's some reason to doubt what it says, then tell us what you think it should say. i am merely asking a question, i DONT doubt what it says, i just want more understanding thats all, lets not get hasty and jump to conclusions. i am a YEC, and i believe the Bible to be completely accurate and teh complete breath of God. i believe John meant the actual form of God, his real form not him talking to a person THROUGH an object or person or animal. if you speak to me through the phone, i am not the phone. thats my point. its not false that John said No one has seen God at any time besides Jesus himself.
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2793 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
Juraikken writes: what did John mean when he said "no one hath seen God"? What do you mean, what did he mean?
i believe the Bible to be completely accurate ... its not false that John said No one has seen God at any time Yet you recognize that John's statement apparently contradicts Old Testament witnesses who claim to have seen God face to face, wrestled with him, had lunch with him and argued with him. Yes? John also says: "God is a spirit." Spirits are invisible. Thus, by John's logic: God is invisible. Moses might take issue with John's statement but that's not my problem. I could try to tell you everything I know on the subject but where's the fun in that? It would be more enjoyable and far more convincing to discover the answers for yourself. For the purpose of assisting topical study, nothing beats: blueletterbible.org Theology is the science of Dominion. - - - My God is your god's Boss - - -
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Juraikken Member (Idle past 6216 days) Posts: 82 From: Winnetka, CA Joined: |
doctrbill writes: What do you mean, what did he mean? what did he literally mean? spirit? dialogue? what? i guess you just answered that tho lol
doctrbill writes: Yet you recognize that John's statement apparently contradicts Old Testament witnesses who claim to have seen God face to face, wrestled with him, had lunch with him and argued with him. Yes? John also says: "God is a spirit." Spirits are invisible. Thus, by John's logic: God is invisible. Moses might take issue with John's statement but that's not my problem. I could try to tell you everything I know on the subject but where's the fun in that? It would be more enjoyable and far more convincing to discover the answers for yourself. For the purpose of assisting topical study, nothing beats: blueletterbible.org God by definition cannot be near sin correct? that is why he sent his son down to earth to die for us....so then how would God in his true form be with man? please give me verses of those people who say God face to face, fought with him, and argued with him and at lunch with him
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2793 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
Juraikken writes: please give me verses Is your mouse finger broken? I am not a kindly ol' Sunday School teacher. I've given you excellent clues and offered you sophisticated tools. You'll have to do your own homework. I look forward to our next conversation. Goodnight. Theology is the science of Dominion. - - - My God is your god's Boss - - -
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Juraikken Member (Idle past 6216 days) Posts: 82 From: Winnetka, CA Joined: |
*shock* ROFL uh....okay
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graft2vine Member (Idle past 4983 days) Posts: 139 Joined: |
juraikken writes: there were no contradictions to begin with you made more contradictions lol Yes there are contradictions that you will need to explain. Here is the order of events as is traditionally taught: (Gen 1) Plants, animals, man and woman. (Gen 2) Man, plants, animals, woman. How do you reconcile this order? It appears that you are saying that God created plants and animals twice, the second set being after the six creation days... 8th day?
Gen 2:4 states how this chapter will start to talk about the generations of the world. when this says "in the day" it is talking about when God put Adam in the garden. check it 16. SIXTH DAY finished 17. God rests and puts Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. (Alt 1) Plants, animals, man, more plants, more animals, woman. Where in the Bible does it say that God created plants and animals twice? And was woman created after the 6th day also? Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Here is my alternative - God created man twice, not plants and animals. (Alt 2) Man, plants, animals, woman, Man again (male and female) Where in the Bible does it say that God created man twice? Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Eph 4:22-24 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 1Cr 15:45-49 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed [first Adam], but of incorruptible [second Adam], by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. In summary, The first Adam is the first living thing that God creates (on the third day), the last Adam is the last thing God creates (on the sixth day). The first Adam is made of the earth (as shown in Gen 2), bearing the image of the earthly, whereas the last Adam is made in the image of God (as shown in Gen 1), bearing the image of the heavenly.
how could there be no plants when God clearly says that AND EVERY PLANT OF THE FIELD BEFORE IT WAS IN THE EARTH? just because it didnt rain doesnt mean there was no plants, the mist that came FROM The ground made the plants water. If the plants were not in the earth, then there were no plants yet. It says nothing had grown because there was no rain. Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground.
he had already created the earth with plants and animals THEN he made the garden of EDEN Here is God making animals after the Garden of Eden: Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.
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Juraikken Member (Idle past 6216 days) Posts: 82 From: Winnetka, CA Joined: |
graft2vine writes: (Gen 1) Plants, animals, man and woman. (Gen 2) Man, plants, animals, woman. ok like i said Genesis one is the creation! only, Genesis 2 has one sentence in the beginning recap THEN it speaks about the drama in the garden of Eden. genesis 2 does not have a SECOND creation going on.
graft2vine writes: How do you reconcile this order? It appears that you are saying that God created plants and animals twice, the second set being after the six creation days... 8th day? there is no second set he only made them all once, and then in the garden of eden he BROUGHT them out of the ground IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN ONLY for Adam to name. why do you think it says "in the garden of eden" and not IN THE ENTIRE WORLD?
graft2vine writes: Where in the Bible does it say that God created plants and animals twice? And was woman created after the 6th day also? it does not say, it says God made all animals and plants ONCE, then in the garden of eden (after everything was made) God put man in there, the garden of eden didnt have anything in there! God put man in there then brought forth all the plants and animals for adam to name! there is no alternate creation, it is the continuation of genesis 1. God made the world, plants, then animals then created man THEN created the garden of EDEN, not the world AGAIN
graft2vine writes: Here is my alternative - God created man twice, not plants and animals. if you talking about making man twice as in Adam then Eve, then you are correct. but never did he do two adams and two eves lol woah! ive never heard this idea before, but then who is this SECOND man? ADAM is the first ever man, the entire bible will agree to this, so then tell me who this other man is? i think i know where you got confused, ok Genesis one is ONLY speaking about all of creation all 7 days in complete. on the 6th day he created man and woman right? then the chapter goes on not worried about the details about Eve's sin YET and finished off the chapter with the 7 days. THATS all chapter one does, is explain the chronology of the creation NOT the drama in Eden. THEN in chapter 2 it explains the creation of MAN in detail, genesis 2 STILL takes place on day 6! basically it went backward just a tad to explain in detail about the creation of MAN because MAN is dominated over everything and thus is more important. so...Genesis1: Explanation of The Creation in a wholeGenesis2: Explanation of MANS creation in the whole, not worried about the rest of the world at the moment. graft2vine writes: Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. that meerely explains God made Adam then he also created Eve, not the SAME exact Adam. key word is "another"
graft2vine writes: Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? meaning God created both Man and Woman from dust and both are capable to honor and dishonor.
graft2vine writes: Eph 4:22-24 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. this has nothign to do with physical creation but your acceptance of salvation makes you a NEW MAN, the old man(without god) is decietful and evil and the new man(with god) is riteousness and holy.
graft2vine writes: 1Cr 15:45-49 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. ok this was a little complicated, but i think i can manage. i dont understand the part "the last Adam was made a quickening spirit" i THINK this verse is talking about the first man being Adam and the second man being Jesus the second part i understand even though we are borne on earth and look like earthlings we ALSO look like God in looks not powers. God made us in his own image so thats why we would have the image of the heavenly. ok i FINALLY got that one sentence down
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. this means that you start off as natural then become spiritual (through death)
graft2vive writes: 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed [first Adam], but of incorruptible [second Adam], by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. no where in that verse does it mention Adam at all, you inserted Adam where you wanted, and this verse means accepting christ as your savior, being Born again, being saved, being cleansed of your sins. has nothign to do with the PHYSICAL man.
graft2vine writes: In summary, The first Adam is the first living thing that God creates (on the third day), the last Adam is the last thing God creates (on the sixth day). The first Adam is made of the earth (as shown in Gen 2), bearing the image of the earthly, whereas the last Adam is made in the image of God (as shown in Gen 1), bearing the image of the heavenly. you completely took out all those verses of their contexts and created it into what you want. none of those were even talking about PHYSICAL man form. the first ADAM is you right now, the sinful person born of this world that has the ADAMIC sin. the SECOND adam is not a physical being, its YOU when you have accepted Christ as your savior and have been saved by Christ when he died on the cross for YOUR sins. THEN you have become the second adam. nowhere in gen1 does it say "Adam was created of the earthly" even in Gen2 it says that Adam was created out of dirt!
graft2vine writes: If the plants were not in the earth, then there were no plants yet. It says nothing had grown because there was no rain. you my friend are calling God a liar when he clearly stats that he created all seed bearing plants (in Gen1). and plus what makes you think the plants he created werent FULLY GROWN to begin with? the fully grown ones dont need water for a little bit, but look the second after God brings forth water to water the plants how nice eh? have you forgotten what Genesis 1:11 says? "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding SEED, and the fruit TREE yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itslef, upin the earth: and it was so" you see that there was TREES created before Adam and Eve were created. there were TREES and SEEDS both there. one was created fully grown and one was created with only seeds!
graft2vine writes: Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. he didnt CREATE them again he brought them out of the ground JUST for the garden of eden, it was exclusively for the garden of eden AFTER the rest of the world was already created. and it even says god PUT man into the garden of eden, where did he put him from? exactly, the world was already made and God MOVED Adam into the garden of eden and brought forth the animals and plants INTO The garden of eden JUST for the garden of eden for Adam to name etc. Edited by Juraikken, : No reason given.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Let me really upset the apple cart.
so...Genesis1: Explanation of The Creation in a whole Genesis2: Explanation of MANS creation in the whole, not worried about the rest of the world at the moment. Everything in Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:26 took place the same day as Genesis 1:1
quote: This man was made after the heavens and earth. He was formed from the dust of the earth and God breathed the breath of life into him. The seven days of Moses starts with Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3
quote: This man was created (spoke into being)in Gods image on the 6th day. Now how much time was between the first man and the second man, only God knows. BTW Adam and man are the same word in OT Hebrew. As is Eve and Woman. "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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